Ever a good thing to be hard on a student?

jrh said:
This is opening up a can of worms...I don't like the military way of training. Maybe it works for them because they're dealing with pre-screened trainees who are being trained to handle very specific missions in a combat environment.

I think their harsher techniques are inappropriate for training the vast majority of civilian pilots. We're talking about two totally different environments.
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While I agree with you on in the second paragraph, I'd say that the first paragraph kind of paints it out to be something that it isn't in reality. From my personal experience in the military training command, yelling was really not the method of choice, even there. Yes it happened, but generally not in the airplane. The IP just doesn't have time to sit up there and keep yelling; fuel is too limited and in the end he/she can just down you and be done with the flight if it is that bad. The intensity comes in the expectations that are placed on students on those flights (often very early on hours-wise), and the honest grading and debriefing after every flight. I can think of several times when I got my butt chewed out for something or another, but I don't recall that ever taking place in the jet. Yeah, there is some genuine heat placed on students for mistakes they make, but it isn't personal, and it is not hard to understand that the intent behind it is to make you better. This is not meant to turn the discussion into another mil vs civilian training debate because I think there are a lot of goods about the civilian methods, and I think it is better suited for the kind of flying civilian pilots do. But I do feel that a lot of the folks I did civilian training with were sweet-talked into overconfidence that was undeserved, at least early on. This is one area where I think the military method does a little better job. Gotta have a thick skin, and you have to be realistic about your weaknesses if you are going to improve.

Now the sims were a whole other experience, and some of the old guys had very old school techniques (yelling, personal insults, etc), but IMHO that was to place some pressure on the student, and give them confidence in their ability to compartmentalize and problem solve while everything else is going wrong. I can honestly say that I got a lot out of those sims, and I'm certainly no glutton for punishment.
 
///AMG said:
While I agree with you on in the second paragraph, I'd say that the first paragraph kind of paints it out to be something that it isn't in reality. From my personal experience in the military training command, yelling was really not the method of choice, even there. Yes it happened, but generally not in the airplane. The IP just doesn't have time to sit up there and keep yelling; fuel is too limited and in the end he/she can just down you and be done with the flight if it is that bad. The intensity comes in the expectations that are placed on students on those flights (often very early on hours-wise), and the honest grading and debriefing after every flight. I can think of several times when I got my butt chewed out for something or another, but I don't recall that ever taking place in the jet. Yeah, there is some genuine heat placed on students for mistakes they make, but it isn't personal, and it is not hard to understand that the intent behind it is to make you better. This is not meant to turn the discussion into another mil vs civilian training debate because I think there are a lot of goods about the civilian methods, and I think it is better suited for the kind of flying civilian pilots do. But I do feel that a lot of the folks I did civilian training with were sweet-talked into overconfidence that was undeserved, at least early on. This is one area where I think the military method does a little better job. Gotta have a thick skin, and you have to be realistic about your weaknesses if you are going to improve.

Now the sims were a whole other experience, and some of the old guys had very old school techniques (yelling, personal insults, etc), but IMHO that was to place some pressure on the student, and give them confidence in their ability to compartmentalize and problem solve while everything else is going wrong. I can honestly say that I got a lot out of those sims, and I'm certainly no glutton for punishment.
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Great post man!!

As far as civilian flying goes - I can see your point about instructors that take positive reinforcement too far.. which can be deadly.

I guess the biggest difference is that civilian students are paying customers and there really isn't a rank structure, nor is there a class ranking, goals ...i.e. the amount of leverage that the mil instructor has.
 
shdw said:
:yeahthat: Looking back, I've had instructors let on their frustration with me and/or speak harshly towards me. The two instructors I speak of were the most influential instructors in my career thus far.


The military does this regularly, from what I hear. It can be, in my opinion, an effective method to build certain disciplines.
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jrh said:
This is opening up a can of worms...I don't like the military way of training. Maybe it works for them because they're dealing with pre-screened trainees who are being trained to handle very specific missions in a combat environment.
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From an Army Aviation perspective, in my opinion Army flight training is extraordinarily professional and their instructors rarely employ harsh or abrasive techniques. They genuinely want you to learn and succeed and except for some outliers, generally don't yell, scream, or belittle their students.

From my personal experience, each one of my military flight instructors were very calm and professional teachers. Not one raised their voice to me - ever - except one who was really interested in his students' success and would yell and scream in triumph when his students would nail a maneuver really well.

I've heard stories from the older aviators about a time when harsh, abrasive techniques were used in flight training. Apparently those techniques are decades old.
 
jrh said:
I don't like the military way of training. Maybe it works for them because they're dealing with pre-screened trainees who are being trained to handle very specific missions in a combat environment.

I think their harsher techniques are inappropriate for training the vast majority of civilian pilots. We're talking about two totally different environments.
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Ian J said:
From my personal experience, each one of my military flight instructors were very calm and professional teachers. Not one raised their voice to me - ever - except one who was really interested in his students' success and would yell and scream in triumph when his students would nail a maneuver really well.
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Precisely.

I think that many have a very skewed view of exactly just what military flying training is like. It's not "Full Metal Jacket".

I continue to extend an invitation to any of you who will be in the OKC/Wichita area and want to observe the USAF pilot training operation firsthand, please drop me a line and we'll arrange a visit.

My bet is that you'll be surprised at what you see, in a good way.
 
I'm of the mindset that it is not acceptable under most circumstances for a teacher to yell at their student, especially if the student is giving an honest effort.

Think back to high school. Did any of your favorite teachers yell at you or a particular student for making a mistake while you were giving an honest effort? If they did, how did that make you feel? What did that do to the learning environment?

There are many ways to get the point across without yelling. The airplane is such a loud, noisy and fragile environment to learn in. Yelling won't do anything to better that environment.

Keep things calm, positive, and most of all - low stress.
 
I've heard a story about a student and instructor doing spins or stalls or whatnot with the student at the controls locking up and not recovering holding full aft yoke. The only way the instructor was able to recover the aircraft was elbowing him in the face which allowed the instructor to recover.

I think if it ever came to it and it was between being nice and living someone (not me) would be walking away with a bloody nose.
 
Not really apples to apples....I think this is a bit different than the original posting question. If a student does something like that, it is by "whatever means necessary" to regain positive control.

As far as the yelling bit (only three pages too late) I have had several opportunities to raise my voice to a student, but always chose another approach. The furthest I ever went with one was debriefing post flight with a comment that they should, "Come back tomorrow and tell me why every flight I have to remind you to not pull back on the yoke while turning base to final (a terrible habit learned from the King's videos). Because if I need to remind you again in the airplane, we'll be sitting in the Chief Instructor's office and you'll be hearing me say I cannot fly with you again."

It never happened again! I felt like a total jerkwad saying it, but the same student still tells me how it made a difference and they never would do it again.

Phantom017 said:
I've heard a story about a student and instructor doing spins or stalls or whatnot with the student at the controls locking up and not recovering holding full aft yoke. The only way the instructor was able to recover the aircraft was elbowing him in the face which allowed the instructor to recover.

I think if it ever came to it and it was between being nice and living someone (not me) would be walking away with a bloody nose.
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sdfcvoh said:
"Come back tomorrow and tell me why every flight I have to remind you to not pull back on the yoke while turning base to final (a terrible habit learned from the King's videos). Because if I need to remind you again in the airplane, we'll be sitting in the Chief Instructor's office and you'll be hearing me say I cannot fly with you again."
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Must be missing something here... why would it be wrong to do that? We did that everyday, tens of times a day flying jump planes to bleed off excess energy with a tight pattern...
 
ryan1234 said:
Must be missing something here... why would it be wrong to do that? We did that everyday, tens of times a day flying jump planes to bleed off excess energy with a tight pattern...
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I've seen many students who get distracted lining up on centerline, talking on the radio and whatever else to the point the don't realize how much back pressure they are adding. I've seen as much as 5-10 degrees of nose up pitch during that turn. I don't think that's a very good idea.
 
ryan1234 said:
Must be missing something here... why would it be wrong to do that? We did that everyday, tens of times a day flying jump planes to bleed off excess energy with a tight pattern...
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Maybe because it was a student and he was already on speed and doing so would be...ummm...problematic?
 
SteveC said:
Maybe because it was a student and he was already on speed and doing so would be...ummm...problematic?
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Bingo. We're talking PPL students not trying to bleed off speed with an advanced maneuver. It was more an exaggerated "this is what I was told" primacy thing I was trying to get rid of from a student.

If anyone has ever used the King's series you'll understand - its a bad portion of their training module.
 
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