R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Yelling? Maybe appropriate in a very few specific instances, but not often and very seldom the optimal thing to do. Being tough on a student? Definitely appropriate. Had to do it many a time.
Ever a good thing to be hard on a student?
- Thread starter Mattio
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Lead
Well-Known Member
Here ya go. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=ANC06LA026&rpt=fi
I was kind of following this guy's career because he was just a little older than me and he was up and coming. He died right around the time I was a brand new CFI. This is what I reference when I explain the importance of airspeed on final to a student.
I use the being tough technique, the least out of all the instructor tricks in my bag. For primary students, it should very very rarely be used, I agree. However some things do need to be emphasized. (maybe yelling was too strong of a word.)
jrh
Well-Known Member
Do you really think this pilot, with 1500 TT, 200 in make and model, and experienced in aerobatics, did not understand the importance of maintaining a safe airspeed on final?
Do you really think an instructor yelling (or raising their voice, or whatever) would have prevented him from going in?
To me, this accident report is a classic example of how there must have been something else going on, beyond the NTSB's conclusion. Sadly, we might never know. Saying the crash was caused by failing to maintain adequate airspeed is like saying the airplane was damaged due to its impact with the ground. I feel like saying, "Duh!" Of course. The bigger question is, "WHY did the pilot fail to maintain adequate speed?"
That is the deeper question instructors need to be training pilots for. Maybe it was a distraction of some sort, maybe he wasn't following the IM SAFE checklist and flying while medicated (read the medical section of the accident report), etc. It could have been any number of things. But the bottom line is, yelling about airspeed is equivalent to yelling at a student, "Remember not to crash! Don't hit the ground!" It states the obvious while ignoring bigger dangers at play.
I stand by my original post. I can't think of a good use for yelling.
Oldschool Pilot
Well-Known Member
You can be hard on a student non verbally, I did just that a few months ago. The kid was focused on his instruments and not scanning outside the airplane AT ALL for something simple (slow flight). I was at the breaking point because it's been an on going trend for these typical students I teach so I just took control and pitched the nose down saying "did you see that airplane? No im guessing not, look outside!" There was really no airplane, but I got the point across. 
tgrayson
New Member
"When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
I had a student once that was oblivious to airspeed on final, so I asked him to read me his airspeed every five seconds. This fixed the problem completely, and I think he still does this 1500 hours later.
The "barking" solution is a failure of imagination on the part of the instructor.
Lead
Well-Known Member
Of course he did, but the student doesn't.
Probably not, 1500 hours is a long time separated. But I do think it could potentially help a student, that's about to be flying around on your ticket. Also, there is a difference in students here. When you teach someone that WANTS TO FLY, they want to do a good job naturally. They will automatically be paying attention to something like airspeed and it will most likely not warrant (as most things don't) an exaggerated emphasis. However, some students I teach, (international), don't want to fly and as a result are lazy in the plane. Yes you can and should try to make it fun and get them interested etc. But when management is saying that anything for a private pilot over 40 hours is unacceptable. The student doesn't even have a drivers license. Plus a language barrier. It may not be best to just be even keel ALL the time.
When English isn't someones first language, words don't necessarily carry certain connotations or the power that they do with native speakers. (Try cursing in another language and see if it feels the same.) Also, for example, my students will often call people "fat," to there face, rather than saying "you should probably watch what you eat." As a result, using the same tone for classroom instruction and while emphasizing the importance of something isn't the most effective method.
Also, the question was "is it EVER acceptable?." I think it's almost never acceptable but I am highlighting some times where I think it sometimes is.
Respectfully, I disagree. This is true for you and me, but to students without the experience or knowledge base, they don't know that low airspeed on final - equals high sink rate/potential stall/potential crash. I know this because I have explained things, demonstrated things etc. until blue in the face and they stare at it every day and they still do not make a correlation. (And no obviously yelling is not the solution to this problem.) I am talking about something as basic as more ground showing in the windscreen equals faster airspeed, less ground equals less airspeed. If they can mess up on something as basic as that, they can certainly mess up on correlating low airspeed to danger.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
An instructor has many different methods of instruction to draw on. His skill rests in his ability to use those methods as appropriate for the student, the skill being taught, and the scenario.
Yelling, being anrgy, visibly showing your displeasure, etc, is a valid method of instruction and can be extremely effective if used under the proper circumstances.
I respect the experience of some of the higher time CFIs on this board, but when they say 'never' with respect to a particular style of instruction, I think they're flat wrong.
Yelling, being anrgy, visibly showing your displeasure, etc, is a valid method of instruction and can be extremely effective if used under the proper circumstances.
I respect the experience of some of the higher time CFIs on this board, but when they say 'never' with respect to a particular style of instruction, I think they're flat wrong.
:yeahthat: Looking back, I've had instructors let on their frustration with me and/or speak harshly towards me. The two instructors I speak of were the most influential instructors in my career thus far.
The military does this regularly, from what I hear. It can be, in my opinion, an effective method to build certain disciplines.
tgrayson
New Member
I agree that if you want instant, mindless obedience, punishment is probably very effective. Is that what you're looking for in a student?
Beating your children with baseball bats is also an “effective” way to ensure their compliance; break a few bones and they'll probably rush to clean up their rooms, once the casts come off. That doesn't change the fact that such a disciplinary method is barbaric. “Effective” doesn't mean humane or civilized, nor does it consider what sort of human being that you wish to be or what sort of relationship you wish to have with others around you.
On the other hand, positive reinforcement can produce any sort of behavioral change you wish, but it does take more thought and effort on the part of the instructor in order to arrange the reinforcers. The payback is that you end up with learners who take joy in training and work harder to achieve a goal that becomes intrinsically desirable, rather than doing just well enough to avoid punishment. My take is that you're helping them become better human beings, not just instilling the immediate training requirements.
A great book is “Don't Shoot the Dog”, by Karen Pryor, a behavioral biologist:
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Do...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279485424&sr=1-1
Although her experience is mostly with animals, she quotes a researcher who said: “Nobody should be allowed to have a baby until they have first been required to train a chicken.” Punishment doesn't work with many animals, including chickens, but positive reinforcement works with all of them, including human beings, and it makes for happier instructors and students.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Sometimes.
Your arguments are based on the assumption that students are all reasonable mature adults who can see the logic in your lesson. Sadly this is not always the case.
Sometimes you get a immature, entitled, spoiled teenager who thinks looping a Cessna would be fun.
tgrayson
New Member
How is that a worse handicap than being a chicken?
Actually, what I'm describing doesn't require rationality at all; it works on any organism with a nervous system. Behavior that gets positively reinforced will reoccur, even when the organism doesn't consciously connect the two. Here's an old story that I've heard or read many times over the years, don't know if it every truly happened:
When I took Psychology in University, one of my professors told us about being given a very similar assignment when he was an Undergrad. Each student was to go off and create a little informal "experiment" that demonstrated one of the lessons they would be covering during the year. Well, his class decided to do things a little differently. Instead of each doing a separate assignment, they decided to do one together - demonstrating operant conditioning. So here's what they did:
Every day in class, they would react in a specific way depending on where the professor was standing. At the beginning of the year, the professor would mostly stand in the middle of the area at the front of the classroom, and spend approximately an equal time closer to one side or another. So the class decided that when the professor stood closer to the right side of the room, they would all act attentive, make eye contact, take notes, etc. When he would start to move toward the left side of the room, the students would start to act tired, lean back and slump in their seats, and stop taking notes. The change would of course be subtle so that the professor wouldn't realize what they were doing.
Throughout the year, they kept count of how much time the professor spent either in the middle of the room, closer to the right side, or closer to the left side. By the end of the year, the professor Twas lecturing almost exclusively from the right side of the room.
Of course, it was hilarious when they all submitted their papers (which they did write individually, though they used the collective data). And my poor professor said that every year, he's always paranoid that his students will try the same trick with him.
The looping student would be tough to fix with any sort of behavioral control, since it might well occur when you aren't in a position to apply any positive or negative reinforcement. Yelling or lectures certainly won't fix it with any reliability; might make it worse.Every day in class, they would react in a specific way depending on where the professor was standing. At the beginning of the year, the professor would mostly stand in the middle of the area at the front of the classroom, and spend approximately an equal time closer to one side or another. So the class decided that when the professor stood closer to the right side of the room, they would all act attentive, make eye contact, take notes, etc. When he would start to move toward the left side of the room, the students would start to act tired, lean back and slump in their seats, and stop taking notes. The change would of course be subtle so that the professor wouldn't realize what they were doing.
Throughout the year, they kept count of how much time the professor spent either in the middle of the room, closer to the right side, or closer to the left side. By the end of the year, the professor Twas lecturing almost exclusively from the right side of the room.
Of course, it was hilarious when they all submitted their papers (which they did write individually, though they used the collective data). And my poor professor said that every year, he's always paranoid that his students will try the same trick with him.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I think we are all agreed that yelling, intimidating, or belittling a student should never be plan A. Furthermore losing your temper and exploding on a student is never OK.
However I see a few rare cases where a good ass chewing is the best way to get your point across. Any good teacher should be 95% carrot and 5% stick.
I care far more about my kids than I ever would any student. So when my 3 year old son runs away from me in the parking lot, I'll spank him and shout in his face to make SURE he never tries something like that again.
However I see a few rare cases where a good ass chewing is the best way to get your point across. Any good teacher should be 95% carrot and 5% stick.
I care far more about my kids than I ever would any student. So when my 3 year old son runs away from me in the parking lot, I'll spank him and shout in his face to make SURE he never tries something like that again.
jrh
Well-Known Member
That's the sort of scenario I'd rather walk away from than deal with. I'm sorry you're in it. It kind of makes me say, "This situation is so effed up on so many levels that an instructor yelling is only a small part of the problem." I don't know what's right or wrong in these situations.
It's kind of like being a soldier. If you're a soldier, part of your job might include killing people. I don't know how to balance the rightness or wrongness of killing people, so I choose not to join the military. Rather than try to figure out the "right" thing to do, I avoid being in the spot that requires a decision to begin with.
So it is with instructing. I'd have a lot of ethical dilemmas with the situation you described, so I refuse to work for that type of school.
jrh
Well-Known Member
That's ironic. I've only had a couple instructors raise their voice to me, and I thought those two instructors were a couple of the least effective ones I've ever dealt with.
This is opening up a can of worms...I don't like the military way of training. Maybe it works for them because they're dealing with pre-screened trainees who are being trained to handle very specific missions in a combat environment.
I think their harsher techniques are inappropriate for training the vast majority of civilian pilots. We're talking about two totally different environments.
As a side note, nobody has responded to my comment earlier about what the Aviation Instructor's Handbook says on this topic. I'd be intrigued to read anything positive it has to say about yelling. I'll go so far as to say it includes nothing positive about this technique.
Here is a link in case anyone wants to prove me wrong:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/aviation_instructors_handbook/media/FAA-H-8083-9A.pdf
jrh
Well-Known Member
You don't say "never" to *any* style of instruction? What if I said I liked flicking cow turds in my students' faces while they flew, in order to make sure they can handle distractions?
It is, without a doubt, *never* appropriate to flick cow turds at a pilot. Period.
Obviously that's an extreme example, but my point is valid. There certainly can be teaching styles that are unacceptable, and I'm becoming convinced that yelling is one of them.
I say your black and white judgment of my black and white judgment is flat wrong.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
So when Danny, you're new top gun student rolls you inverted and pushes hard forward, you calmly recover the airplane with a tempered scolding?
Your inability to prevent your student from rolling inverted in the first place is your error, not theirs. If anybody in the cockpit has a right to be yelling it isn't you. They've hired you to keep them safe and it is your job to do so.
mmaviator
New Member
I have never observed or dealt with any 'hard' teaching ways while I was in elementary, middle, high, college. But with life and death mistakes, you have to be stearn/hard with a student sometimes. Story time: A student and I were descending into an airport and when we got into the traffic pattern the student decided to do something unlike anything he has ever done or did afterwards. While looking out for traffic and guarding the throttle quadrant the student decided to pull the prop lever to feather. It was a second or two but felt like a minute and I rammed the levers back forward. I stared at the props thinking they were going to feather. Anyways, I'm still alive and made sure he understood what could have been the consequence. I believe being hard in a constructive way helps but don't go to the extreme or over do it.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
I had a student pull the mixture to idle once on downwind instead of the throttle. I remember looking at it and thinking; yup, this is par for course today" and saying "I guess we'll make this one a full stop eh? I had another student once who turned the fuel selector to OFF during an emergency/secure procedure. We still have a laugh about that one to this day (right E..A)?