Student Solo

Aviator1988

Aviator1988

Well-Known Member
So i had a scenario today that i'd like to share and get some feedback on.

I have a Norweigan student today who was ready for his first solo. Great aircraft control and situational awareness, and studies hard. He's a very good student. We go out to the airplane (a might C-172 Skyhawk), preflight and find the parking brake doesn't work. i choose not to solo him in that airplane. i bring the keys back inside and proceed to get bitched at by dispatch because my student shouldn't rely on the parking brake. I was then told "There is some risk associated with soloing a student, and you know that". I understand this, however, what is wrong with minimizing the risk? If this student sets the brake that doesn't work and accidentally taxis onto an active runway or god forbid causes an accident then what happens??? well, then these same people that are telling me that i shouldn't worry about it will have my ass for the exact thing they are telling me i should do.

I teach all of my students to hold the brakes even when the parking brake is engaged. I find a lot of guys like to set the brake during the run up, and immediately put their eyes inside the cockpit at their checklist, tuning radios, etc. and not look outside to see if they are moving. So what is wrong with minimizing risk? this particular student probably wouldn't make that small mistake... but when im not in the airplane, and my certificate is on the line, i as the instructor made the decision not to go. So i ask you guys.... did i make the wrong decision?
 
You know it's up to you and you know that it is your responsibility for that students safety while he is flying. Don't worry about what others questions, specially from dispatch...that's why they are dispatchers.
 
Tell them in a non-confrontational way that it is your signature in the student's logbook, and he will fly under the conditions you determine are safe.
 
Aviator1988 said:
So i ask you guys.... did i make the wrong decision?
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I don't like the idea of anyone pushing anyone to do anything questionable. It sets up a poor "safety culture" if people are feeling pushed, no matter if the issue truly is a safety issue or not. It's the perception that matters.

Just the other day I had a pilot question the air pressure of one of the main tires on our trainer. I was certain it was fine, but I didn't dismiss his concerns. We had a line guy come check the tire pressure to be certain everything was meeting specs.

Look at it this way: I don't want to train pilots to check something, determine it to be inop/incorrect, then shrug and say, "Let's go anyway," without consulting anything or anybody.

And that's precisely what I would have explained to the dispatcher.

Now, as for flying a plane with an inoperative parking brake...the issue isn't clear cut. The equipment list on every 172 I've ever flown has required the brakes to be operative. Is the parking brake considered part of the brake assembly? I don't know.

*Personally* I probably would have flown it and been willing to solo a student pilot in it, assuming everything else was functioning correctly. But that's strictly *me*. I consider the risk of running in to something to be quite small...a risk worth taking, so to speak. But you know your student's capabilities and your local airport environment (how tight the parking areas are, etc.) better than I do.

If you weren't ok with it, you made the right call to return to get it serviced. As you said, your neck is on the line, not the non-pilot dispatcher who criticizes you for it. Welcome to the world of professional flying.
 
You did a good job in decision-making. Your student will learn from this event and will pass it along to his student when or if he ever becomes an instructor also.

These events teach the student proper ways to treat an airplane. It generally goes that if you treat the airplane right, the airplane will treat you the same way.

Dispatch just wants the airplane to fly so that they can get paid, but it's not all about the money, it is about safety. If you feel that your student is unsafe, then you have made a brave decision.

You made the same decision that ANY airline pilot would have made. If the parking brake in any airliner were broken, the pilot's would not fly also.

GOOD JOB!
 
Aviator1988 said:
then these same people that are telling me that i shouldn't worry about it will have my ass for the exact thing they are telling me i should do.
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You are absolutely correct on this and it will never change throughout your life. The underlying problem is that these people have the freedom to complain about inconveniences without suffering any possible consequences from acting as they suggest. This is the eternal source of the critic's self confidence.

Evaluate their criticisms for any real information content and then ignore them as appropriate. There is no right or wrong to this question, it's a matter of where you wish to place yourself along the continuum of risk vs reward.
 
tgrayson said:
You are absolutely correct on this and it will never change throughout your life. The underlying problem is that these people have the freedom to complain about inconveniences without suffering any possible consequences from acting as they suggest. This is the eternal source of the critic's self confidence.

Evaluate their criticisms for any real information content and then ignore them as appropriate. There is no right or wrong to this question, it's a matter of where you wish to place yourself along the continuum of risk vs reward.
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AGREED...good call Aviator1988!!!
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. this isn't the first time i've had my judgement questioned in front of my students here. Im still a newer instructor with roughly 400 hours total and about 150 dual given. im always looking to learn and improve. i spoke to my student after this had happened, and he told me he agreed with me, and said he understood. just frustrating since this isn't the first time my judgement has been questioned as an instructor.
 
Great decision in my point of view! There are just way to many things that could go wrong in this situation, and like others said it is ultimately your signature and instructor license on the line not dispatches. If your not comfortable doing sending the student up to solo in the aircraft then you made the right decision not soloing the student!!!
 
Great decision. It stinks that your judgement was questioned, but that's just the way it is as others have said. Personally, when I sign a student off for a solo, I do not use that as an opportunity to introduce something new. If they've never operated the airplane with an inop. parking brake, then they aren't going to do it on their first solo. New experiences are what flight training is all about, but in the circumstances of a first solo, the student has enough on their plate just getting around the pattern a few times. That's my philosophy at least.
 
All of the Cessna operating manuals I have (172N,172XP, 172RG,172S,182Q,&182T) list "Parking Brake- SET" as the first item in the Before Takeoff Checklist. On the 182RG manual I have, it's the second item on the Before Takeoff Checklist.

I'd call that a no-go item, and I'd have to believe the FSDO and the NTSB (and probably the Insurance Company) would too

Nevermind that it's a small risk, IF anything should go wrong- even if it's not caused by the inoperative parking brake, YOU are the one who'll have to explain why that airplane was being flown when it should have been grounded for repair
 
If you look through the Equipment List for the C-172 you will see that the "Wheel, brake & Tire ASSY" is listed as one item and has a -R suffix, meaning it is required item of equipment for FAA certification. While the parking brake is not specifically mentioned it could be argued that it is part of the brake assembly system and not a separate entity, especially since it is grouped with the brake system in section 7 of the 172 information manual and not listed separately in the Equipment List.
I can think of 10 things that could happen if he had soloed, 9 of them are bad. If something had happened and it came to light that the student went soloing with such a known defect your ticket might have been on the line.
 
I agree with every post above. What I'm more curious about is dispatch. Questioning a CFI in front of a CUSTOMER is grounds for disiplinary action in my company (at least it will be when I get big enough to have dispatch...or CFIs). If that had happened to me, I'd be wanting to talk to management about it. Questioning what was a saftey decision by a CFI or student is unnacceptable and could discourage students from cancelling flights for other, more dangerous, safety concerns.
 
escapepilot said:
I agree with every post above. What I'm more curious about is dispatch. Questioning a CFI in front of a CUSTOMER is grounds for disiplinary action in my company (at least it will be when I get big enough to have dispatch...or CFIs). If that had happened to me, I'd be wanting to talk to management about it. Questioning what was a saftey decision by a CFI or student is unnacceptable and could discourage students from cancelling flights for other, more dangerous, safety concerns.
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Not to mention the questioning of the CFI came from someone who works in aviation. I have to tell friends all the time why my flight lessons get cancelled (weather) and they always say: "but I saw a plane flying" or "but it wasn't even raining"

it's hard to explain to someone outside of aviation, but to have someone working as a dispatcher question your authority as PIC, in front of the student no less, is really disrespectful
 
Aviator1988 said:
I teach all of my students to hold the brakes even when the parking brake is engaged.
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I don't let mine use the parking brake. I'm sorry, if you can't hold a 180 hp engine with nice hydraulic disc breaks then there are some leg muscle issues. Even the 9 year old girl I did an intro with could do it. :)
 
You made the right call. There's no way that dispatch should be questioning your decision as a CFI.

If I were you, I would have a talk with management about the safety culture that this creates. If dispatch was pressuring you as a CFI to do something that you did not feel was safe, who is to say that they would not put pressure on a low time private pilot to make an unsafe decision.
 
shdw said:
I don't let mine use the parking brake. I'm sorry, if you can't hold a 180 hp engine with nice hydraulic disc breaks then there are some leg muscle issues. Even the 9 year old girl I did an intro with could do it. :)
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Don't think I've ever set the parking break in a Skyhawk... Bad habit, 'cause you'll forget to release it someday and the line guys will break something.

I never assume they work anyway...
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Don't think I've ever set the parking break in a Skyhawk... Bad habit, 'cause you'll forget to release it someday and the line guys will break something.

I never assume they work anyway...
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They're not exactly the most reliable... from day one we've never even touched it. Same went with the electric fuel pumps on the injected 172s for take-off - some checklists call for it - but it's one of those deals, where if you keep using it all of the time, it's not going to work when you need it.

But I agree, the CFI needs a certain amount of autonomy to make decisions...it is his/her ticket on the line.

However, if a broke parking brake is all that's bad - life is pretty good there!
 
Screw dispatch. At the end of the day it is our responsibility to look out for the safety of those who pay us to train them. Reducing as much risk as possible is the smartest way to go about anything in aviation. Anyone who says differently should be paid no attention. I say good job.
 
shdw said:
I don't let mine use the parking brake. I'm sorry, if you can't hold a 180 hp engine with nice hydraulic disc breaks then there are some leg muscle issues. Even the 9 year old girl I did an intro with could do it. :)
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uhh, what's the point of this remark? Is it Macho, or sumpthin'.

We all (I hope) agree that the CFI made the right call regardless of his/her my/your technique of teaching brake use.

Now, you probably are pointing out that it is good to teach holding the brakes without the use of a parking brake handle; students get lazy on the brakes if they are taught from day one to SET the parking brake at every START-UP, and RUN-UP. The first day they forget to set the brake, there's trouble. Or if the parking brakes don't work and you are away from home, you have an option.

So, I do like to start a student out holding the brakes, to get the feel, and be in control. Once good brake control is established, then I think (from my experience) that it is equally important to have the student SET the parking brake where appropriate, especially in long waiting lines.

Pilots need to be trained in the all the ways of operating, not just strict one-way my-way habits and attitudes. That's how we get beyond rote and progress through understanding to good practical application.
 
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