Student Solo

[NJA_Capt]

While the parking brake is not specifically mentioned it could be argued that it is part of the brake assembly system and not a separate entity, especially since it is grouped with the brake system in section 7 of the 172 information manual and not listed separately in the Equipment List.

Parking brakes on SE Cessnas are not part of the wheel assembly. They are part of the rudder pedal assembly. There are no parts of the parking brake on the wheel/tire assemblies.

I can think of 10 things that could happen if he had soloed, 9 of them are bad. If something had happened and it came to light that the student went soloing with such a known defect your ticket might have been on the line.

The older Cessna trainers I instructed in had the parking brakes permanently removed. When the parts of the PB fail, the wires/brackets can fall into the pedals and jam them, the brakes, or interfere with flight controls.

I find no fault in the OP for his position. If you aren't comfortable, don't do it. But do it for the right reasons. If something can be deferred or MEL'd (if applicable), flights may be continued.

PS.....Who has dispatchers for a flight school, and Why??? I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[Blackhawk]

Parking brakes on SE Cessnas are not part of the wheel assembly. They are part of the rudder pedal assembly. There are no parts of the parking brake on the wheel/tire assemblies.


The older Cessna trainers I instructed in had the parking brakes permanently removed. When the parts of the PB fail, the wires/brackets can fall into the pedals and jam them, the brakes, or interfere with flight controls.

I find no fault in the OP for his position. If you aren't comfortable, don't do it. But do it for the right reasons. If something can be deferred or MEL'd (if applicable), flights may be continued.

PS.....Who has dispatchers for a flight school, and Why??? I've never heard of such a thing.

The only reference I have is the POH:
"When the airplane is parked, both main brakes may be set by utilizing the parking brake..." Emphasis added. To me this implies that the parking brake is, in fact, part of the brake system. After all... you use it to set the brakes, not the rudder pedals. Just because you flew with them removed does not make it right. I know pilots and mechanics who insist to this day that you can fly an airplane with the carb heat disabled.

 

[shdw]

uhh, what's the point of this remark?

The 9 year old girl was quite macho, yes.

I was merely pointing out that holding the brakes in a single engine piston requires minimal muscle exertion. There is no need for a parking brake, this isn't a 747.

 

[NJA_Capt]

After all... you use it to set the brakes, not the rudder pedals.

The brakes are set by pulling a handle or knob that connects in a "Y" to both rudder pedals. The wires connect to a metal tab on each brake piston (also attached to the rudder pedals). When the handle is pulled, the metal tab "binds" the piston and holds pressure in the brake line. This pressure is what holds the calipers in place on the brake disk. I never said it "set" the rudder pedals. But the parking brake most certainly connected to the pedal assembly, not the wheel/tire/caliper.

For those interested, there is an old thread on the C170 club forum about some of the parking brake issues...as well as damage caused by some of the parking brake failures. It is a similar system to many SE cessna types.
http://cessna170.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5714&sid=bd125257d067a77395e1a418be5beea9

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

The parking brake on small cessnas are horrible. I forbade my students from touching it. The one time I used it out of habit when pulling in to get fuel it locked up one side brakes so all we could to is do left hand circles while taxiiing

 

[Phantom017]

PS.....Who has dispatchers for a flight school, and Why??? I've never heard of such a thing.

Really??... UND, ERAU, FlightSafety, etc all use flight dispatchers. They hand out the aircraft keys, make sure overdue flights are accounted for and get maintenance out if there is an issue with an aircraft?

 

[MikeOH58]

Really??... UND, ERAU, FlightSafety, etc all use flight dispatchers. They hand out the aircraft keys, make sure overdue flights are accounted for and get maintenance out if there is an issue with an aircraft?

But hey...It makes you feel like a real pile-it!

 

[crazyjaydawg]

I will say that although not required, if the student practices using it and it doesn't work; scrub the flight, you don't need to give the student something new on their first solo

 

[Blackhawk]

The brakes are set by pulling a handle or knob that connects in a "Y" to both rudder pedals. The wires connect to a metal tab on each brake piston (also attached to the rudder pedals). When the handle is pulled, the metal tab "binds" the piston and holds pressure in the brake line. This pressure is what holds the calipers in place on the brake disk. I never said it "set" the rudder pedals. But the parking brake most certainly connected to the pedal assembly, not the wheel/tire/caliper.

For those interested, there is an old thread on the C170 club forum about some of the parking brake issues...as well as damage caused by some of the parking brake failures. It is a similar system to many SE cessna types.
http://cessna170.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5714&sid=bd125257d067a77395e1a418be5beea9

I've seen the thread, but even in the thread there is some disagreement as to the requirement to have the parking brake or not. Similar, but not the same.
Even within the 172s you will find differences between older and newer Information Manuals as to the description of the brake/parking brake system. As I pointed out the newer ones seem pretty clear that the parking brake is a part of the brake assembly. Now maybe I am wrong... but if I am right... or even if I am wrong but a safety inspector has the same opinion... you will spend a good deal of time and money defending your certificate over a matter that is not cut and dried. This is probably why some of the A&Ps/IAs in the 170 forum where uncomfortable with disabling the system- it is not clear cut.
Even if disabled it would need to be placarded... something I doubt this school did.

 

[Blackhawk]

PS.....Who has dispatchers for a flight school, and Why??? I've never heard of such a thing.

Becoming more common. Why? Ensure the student taking the airplane meets FAA and insurance requirements. On numerous occasions I have seen student pilots soloing with expired solo endorsements- the person behind the counter just hands them the keys and logbook. I've seen pilots rent airplanes with expired flight reviews... I've seen pilots handed keys to airplanes with overdue maintenance. Dispatch is a way for schools to have a check and balance and reduce their liability.

 

[NJA_Capt]

As I pointed out the newer ones seem pretty clear that the parking brake is a part of the brake assembly. Now maybe I am wrong... but if I am right... or even if I am wrong but a safety inspector has the same opinion... you will spend a good deal of time and money defending your certificate over a matter that is not cut and dried.

It's not that hard. A&P/IA + FSDO/field approval.
Keep in mind there is a difference in a brake "system" and a brake "assenbly." The parking brake is part of the system, but is not part of the brake assembly (tire/wheel/brake). Don't take my word for it.....put your head under the panel and have someone set the brake and see what moves.

Ensure the student taking the airplane meets FAA and insurance requirements.

That is the CFI's job, not a desk clerk. I guess the definition of a dispatcher changes with air carrier dispatchers.

 

[Blackhawk]

It's not that hard. A&P/IA + FSDO/field approval.
Keep in mind there is a difference in a brake "system" and a brake "assenbly." The parking brake is part of the system, but is not part of the brake assembly (tire/wheel/brake). Don't take my word for it.....put your head under the panel and have someone set the brake and see what moves.



That is the CFI's job, not a desk clerk. I guess the definition of a dispatcher changes with air carrier dispatchers.

#1- The parking brake actually sets the brakes... so it is part of the brake assembly and is listed as such in the 172 POH (newer models, older models do not have it listed). It is not listed separately. Since it is not listed separately I would not defer it unless I had something in writing from a FSDO saying you can do this and if as a CFI you tell a student pilot he/she can do this you are putting your ticket on the line. You can go ahead and do so... but you leave yourself open to legal interpretation by bureaucrats. This can be rather expensive.
#2. You are assuming a CFI is always present. I have not seen a flight school or FBO where this is the case. There is, however, always someone behind the counter paid minimum wage. If this person hands out keys to student pilots without a dispatch the FBO/flight school is setting itself up for failure.

 

[jrh]

That is the CFI's job, not a desk clerk.

Maybe so, but courts probably wouldn't see it that way. If Joe goes to Acme Training Academy to learn to fly, his CFI shares the liability with Acme Training Academy. If Joe gets in an accident, the FAA, media, and family members are going to ask a lot of questions about how Joe's training was conducted. It would look really, really bad if Acme Training Academy shrugs and says, "I dunno, ask the CFI." Joe didn't come to the individual CFI to learn, he came to Acme Training Academy, trusting that Acme Training Academy would take care of him...therefore, Acme Training Academy, as an institution, is partially responsible for him.

Having a dispatcher in place reduces the risk of Joe doing something unsafe/illegal to begin with. It's a safeguard to crosscheck the CFI. This way Acme Training Academy isn't staking their entire reputation as a school on their individual instructors. It's a way of maintaining oversight.

I guess the definition of a dispatcher changes with air carrier dispatchers.

Yes, flight school dispatchers play a much less formal role than air carrier dispatchers.

 

[Murdoughnut]

In college I was riding shotgun with a guy in his Chickenhawk. He set the parking break to do the run up - then it wouldn't release. We had a EMB-145 waiting behind us and ground was getting pretty impatient. After that, I always thought it was more trouble that it was worth. Only set mine when I don't have a tie down.

 

[Mike H]

. We had a EMB-145 waiting behind us and ground was getting pretty impatient. .

You mean you didn't put your arm out the window and give the waiting plane the finger?

 

[NJA_Capt]

The parking brake actually sets the brakes... so it is part of the brake assembly and is listed as such in the 172 POH

The parking brake does not set the brakes in many Cessna applications. The parking brake "holds the pressure" that the pilot exerts on the pedals. The brake ASSEMBLY is the brake calipers and disc (associated plumbing) not the handle. The parking brake handle does not move fluid or the calipers. The PB is part of the SYSTEM not the ASSEMBLY.

I would not defer it unless I had something in writing from a FSDO saying you can do this

If you read my post, I said you could get a field approval from the FSDO....that means it IS in writing. It is also in writing if the mx disables it, placards it as such and the required entry made in the airframe log.

and if as a CFI you tell a student pilot he/she can do this you are putting your ticket on the line.

Who said anything about having a student disable a brake? This is for an owner and/or the mechanic.

You are assuming a CFI is always present. I have not seen a flight school or FBO where this is the case. There is, however, always someone behind the counter paid minimum wage. If this person hands out keys to student pilots without a dispatch the FBO/flight school is setting itself up for failure.

A flight school dispatcher is not a licensed dispatcher and carries no more legal responsibility than a desk clerk....Neither of them shoulder any responsibility in event of an accident as they are not required by FARs. They only stand as a safety check in place to (potentially) protect the business. For the record, I have seen many flight schools that operate without "dispatchers," and have worked for a few personally.

Maybe so, but courts probably wouldn't see it that way. Having a dispatcher in place reduces the risk of Joe doing something unsafe/illegal to begin with. It's a safeguard to crosscheck the CFI. This way Acme Training Academy isn't staking their entire reputation as a school on their individual instructors. It's a way of maintaining oversight.

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, a flight school "dispatcher" is not a legal job title and it does not require a license to perform such a function. They are, in essence, a desk clerk with a fancy title. A "dispatcher" is not required under FARs, and as such hold no legal responsibility for the outcome of a flight. The flight school operator, aircraft owner, and the CFI hold all legal responsibility. As I mentioned above, they only serve as a check/balance for the school. As a matter of fact, the courts would likely hold a "dispatcher" more responsible than a "desk clerk" because the school placed them in a position as an "authority" on the aircraft rental, as such, the school has chosen to share responsibility with a third party.

 

[Blackhawk]

The parking brake does not set the brakes in many Cessna applications. The parking brake "holds the pressure" that the pilot exerts on the pedals. The brake ASSEMBLY is the brake calipers and disc (associated plumbing) not the handle. The parking brake handle does not move fluid or the calipers. The PB is part of the SYSTEM not the ASSEMBLY.

If you read my post, I said you could get a field approval from the FSDO....that means it IS in writing. It is also in writing if the mx disables it, placards it as such and the required entry made in the airframe log.

Who said anything about having a student disable a brake? This is for an owner and/or the mechanic.

A flight school dispatcher is not a licensed dispatcher and carries no more legal responsibility than a desk clerk....Neither of them shoulder any responsibility in event of an accident as they are not required by FARs. They only stand as a safety check in place to (potentially) protect the business. For the record, I have seen many flight schools that operate without "dispatchers," and have worked for a few personally.




Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, a flight school "dispatcher" is not a legal job title and it does not require a license to perform such a function. They are, in essence, a desk clerk with a fancy title. A "dispatcher" is not required under FARs, and as such hold no legal responsibility for the outcome of a flight. The flight school operator, aircraft owner, and the CFI hold all legal responsibility. As I mentioned above, they only serve as a check/balance for the school. As a matter of fact, the courts would likely hold a "dispatcher" more responsible than a "desk clerk" because the school placed them in a position as an "authority" on the aircraft rental, as such, the school has chosen to share responsibility with a third party.

Just because a mechanic or owner disables an item does not mean it is still okay to fly the airplane. See FAA v. Nielsen where the mechanic told the pilot it was okay to fly the airplane with the carb heat deferred. It turned out poorly for the pilot involved.
Getting field approval from the FSDO is a different matter. Not even close to the same as a mechanic saying "it's good to go."
No one ever wrote that the dispatcher was licensed or held lega authority. It is, as others have written, merely a check and balance. I too have been around for a year or two and have seen the evolution of flight schools from the day where I showed up at a new FBO, displayed my pilot certificate and was thrown the keys for an airplane. Those days are pretty much over unless a school/FBO is happy with putting their legal/financial future on the line (legal is not referring to FAA legal action but civil legal action). Heck, I've seen student pilots out flying solo with expired solo endorsements- no CFI was around to stop him so he just took the keys. A "dispatcher" and/or a dispatch ticket is just one more line of defense against this type of thing happening.

 

[NJA_Capt]

Just because a mechanic or owner disables an item does not mean it is still okay to fly the airplane. See FAA v. Nielsen where the mechanic told the pilot it was okay to fly the airplane with the carb heat deferred.

FAA v Neilson isn't an accurate defense. The "correction" in question involved required equipment. Further, the mechanic did not sign the logbook. It was not a legal or valid alteration.

Getting field approval from the FSDO is a different matter. Not even close to the same as a mechanic saying "it's good to go."

Which is exactly why I said it had to be a "legal" alteration....ie approved, signed, and documented.

Side note: In the FAA v Neilson document, the pilot thought the mechanic's involvement would absolve him of legal responsibility. Much the same as the "dispatcher" discussions above. Note that the court disregarded the responsibility of the mechanic (a expert and certificated position) and placed full responsibility on the PIC.

 

[Blackhawk]

FAA v Neilson isn't an accurate defense. The "correction" in question involved required equipment. Further, the mechanic did not sign the logbook. It was not a legal or valid alteration.


Which is exactly why I said it had to be a "legal" alteration....ie approved, signed, and documented.

Side note: In the FAA v Neilson document, the pilot thought the mechanic's involvement would absolve him of legal responsibility. Much the same as the "dispatcher" discussions above. Note that the court disregarded the responsibility of the mechanic (a expert and certificated position) and placed full responsibility on the PIC.

The problem is that without field approval to disconnect the parking brake you run into the question as to if it is required or not and that is my point. As I mentioned the 172 manual is quite clear (in the newer models), that the parking brake is part of the brake assembly; so without a field approval I would not fly an airplane nor send a student in an airplane that did not have one as you would be leaving yourself open to the interpretation of the local FSDO if something went wrong. Even if you were right the legal cost would be quite high.
As for the dispatcher not having legal responsibility I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it- no one said the dispatcher has legal responsibility/authority. You are confusing the 135/121 term "dispatch" with the way it is used in flight schools. Flight schools use it as a check and balance to help prevent pilots from flying who should not be flying, a means of securing log books and keys. You will find it becoming more prevalent as TSA asks pointed questions of flight school owners after airplanes are stolen or used by unauthorized people.

 

[Aviator1988]

op: