Maintaining professionalism at 11 pm...

[surreal1221]

It wasn't an AirTran pilot who stated they would cancel at the gate, although it would be that AirTran is who the OP is talking about. But we did have a few other members come in here indicating that they would also do the same in certain scenarios - backing up their statements by following their FOM.

 

[KLB]

What I saw was a couple Part 91/135 pilots jumping down the throat of a 121 pilot for operating by his company's OM, by canceling at the gate.

Not arguing, just stating that perhaps that pilot and crew have to actually follow the rules instead of making their own.

Sure, I wouldn't do it that way, but then again - if my company told me that how I am suppose to operate - then I would, but since they tell me it's okay to cancel in the air or on the ground ASAP - that's what I do.

Well all of us 135 guys have FOMs and OMs to follow to the letter also, but you're defending something that sort of ridiculous. Heck if it's that dangerous to close an IFR flight plane while taxiing, how about you stop the aircraft after exiting the runway, clean the airplane up, run the checklist, close the flight plan, and then taxi to the gate.

That way the rest of us sitting up in a hold waiting to get in can also make our scheduled arrivals. It may not seem like a big deal, but sitting that extra 10 to 15 minutes could cause me to burn an extra 300lbs fuel and in some cases force me to have to go to my alternate.

I don't think anyones asking the 121 guys to break FOM or be unsafe. We're just asking for a little common courtesy. We don't need you guys waltzing around the ATC systems like you own the joint.

It goes both ways. If I'm on the landing rollout and Citrus XXX calls up tower saying that they are on a three mile final, I'd go ahead a give it some reverse and make the first available taxiway instead of rolling out to the one thats closest to the FBO. I don't have to do that, but it's common courtesy.

 

[OldTownPilot]

What I saw was a couple Part 91/135 pilots jumping down the throat of a 121 pilot for operating by his company's OM, by canceling at the gate.

Who said it was in their FOM to cancel at the gate?

 

[Stone Cold]

It wasn't an AirTran pilot who stated they would cancel at the gate, although it would be that AirTran is who the OP is talking about. But we did have a few other members come in here indicating that they would also do the same in certain scenarios - backing up their statements by following their FOM.

Listen, I'm not going to go back and read all the posts. I did not see anybody state their FOM required them to cancel at the gate. Instead I saw people stating they were keeping their IFR clearance in case they ran off/blew up/whatever. If it is in their FOM, or their guidance, then by all means have at it. That is the way it is.

However, if it is not in the guidance and you are doing it because a Captain once said this is a good idea, there are many of us saying you are doing it wrong. It hinders the system if it is not required by your company to do. And I am officially done now!!:bandit:

Enjoy.

 

[dasleben]

However, if it is not in the guidance and you are doing it because a Captain once said this is a good idea, there are many of us saying you are doing it wrong. It hinders the system if it is not required by your company to do. And I am officially done now!!:bandit:

Agreed. One major realization I've had in the 2 years since my furlough is that I really didn't know the actual limits of what was safe and what wasn't. Until you go out and actually see the limit of what's safe (which many guys hired into RJs with low time have not), your only information about how to operate your aircraft safely comes from an FOM and the advice of captains who oftentimes haven't seen the outside of an RJ cockpit themselves. Everything done is ultra-conservative to the point of being absurd.

Guys, go out and fly 135 in icing conditions, blowing boots, landing on ice-covered runways without anti-skid, spoilers, or beta. Go fly through thunderstorms with a radar that was installed in 1979 and hasn't been looked at since. I guarantee you'll come out of it laughing about how ridiculous it is that someone feels they need to taxi to the gate under IFR because they might slide off the taxiway in a ball of fire and explode. Not to sound like a hardass or anything, but that's a ridiculous argument.

Don't be such a Nancy......Nancy.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Is this God damn thing still going on?

Is there anymore to be learned here?

 

[pullup]

Something that'll make you say, "Whaaaa? You mean... and.... and then.... whaaaaaaa? Over... whaaaaaaa?" Trust me.

ETA? Now you have piqued my interest, please PM me details so I am the first to know.

 

[SteveC]

Who said it was in their FOM to cancel at the gate?

That.

 

[pullup]

That.

This.

 

[CameronF]

This.

You can get with this....or you can get with that!

 

[derg]

Who's tha blacksheep...

What's tha blacksheep...

Don't know who I am or when I'm coming so you sleep...

 

[SurferLucas]

Agreed. One major realization I've had in the 2 years since my furlough is that I really didn't know the actual limits of what was safe and what wasn't. Until you go out and actually see the limit of what's safe (which many guys hired into RJs with low time have not), your only information about how to operate your aircraft safely comes from an FOM and the advice of captains who oftentimes haven't seen the outside of an RJ cockpit themselves. Everything done is ultra-conservative to the point of being absurd.

Guys, go out and fly 135 in icing conditions, blowing boots, landing on ice-covered runways without anti-skid, spoilers, or beta. Go fly through thunderstorms with a radar that was installed in 1979 and hasn't been looked at since. I guarantee you'll come out of it laughing about how ridiculous it is that someone feels they need to taxi to the gate under IFR because they might slide off the taxiway in a ball of fire and explode. Not to sound like a hardass or anything, but that's a ridiculous argument.

Don't be such a Nancy......Nancy.

Very nicely put...it's a ridiculous argument. Treat your fellow pilots the way you'd like to treated yourself... regardless if you fly a 172/Twin Cessna/Turboprop/RJ/777/Cargo bird, we all have to share the same air.

 

[spbrian]

Here is my reason. Now kind in mind like I said on the ATR some days we would cancel IFR over 100 miles out and just fly VFR it was just part of flying in the islands.

Now in the ORD system there is maybe 2-3 scheduled flights to an airport after the tower is closed. More then likely if I am flying in to an airport with a closed tower we are running late. Being a RSV guy I more then likely am 10+ hours in to my day. I look at keeping the IFR plan out as one more safety net because the way I understand it with an open IFR plan someone is watching me but if I cancel the controller might stop watching me.

The poor guy in the turbprop freighter might be 15 hours into his day for the 5th day in the row of a long week after having only 40 hours off in that week and having done this for the last month and a half. Think he wants to spend 10 more minutes in the air?

Do onto others what you want to be done onto you, there is always somebody who has had a worse or longer day, or even schedule.. If it's legal and the PIC feels comfortable that safety is not being hurt in anyway help out others.

I can see the IFR to the gate for multiple runway crossings but realisticly by the time that you cancel clearing the runway, turn around the plane behind you won't be touching down until you got to the gate anyway, there is at least 5 minutes before the following a/c touches down.

 

[KLB]

The poor guy in the turbprop freighter might be 15 hours into his day for the 5th day in the row of a long week after having only 40 hours off in that week and having done this for the last month and a half. Think he wants to spend 10 more minutes in the air?

Do onto others what you want to be done onto you, there is always somebody who has had a worse or longer day, or even schedule.. If it's legal and the PIC feels comfortable that safety is not being hurt in anyway help out others.

I can see the IFR to the gate for multiple runway crossings but realisticly by the time that you cancel clearing the runway, turn around the plane behind you won't be touching down until you got to the gate anyway, there is at least 5 minutes before the following a/c touches down.

You sound so familiar with the scenerio you've explained.

 

[Gonzo]

Look it is maybe 1-2 (2 times in 3 years of 121 flying) times a year I fly to a airport with a closed tower in the winter. The rest of the year I cancel on the ground off the runway.

 

[mikecweb]

Look it is maybe 1-2 (2 times in 3 years of 121 flying) times a year I fly to a airport with a closed tower in the winter. The rest of the year I cancel on the ground off the runway.

But the fact remains you don't have a solid reason you just do it because you're making up your own procedures and that's the rub.

 

[spbrian]

But the fact remains you don't have a solid reason you just do it because you're making up your own procedures and that's the rub.

So if I said that I enjoyed hustling it into the parking spot to start the unloading since i'm flying a single pilot airplane and it's really busy with running clean up and checklists after landing and I want to call on my cell phone it's ok?

The thing is that it's not just you. Let's say it's only 50 captains who think it's ok, they each do it once a year. And if it takes an addtional 5 minutes to cancel and allow the next plane in, that is 250 minutes of time for other people to be in the air, 4 hours and 10 minutes.

 

[Old Pete]

I don't think anyones asking the 121 guys to break FOM or be unsafe. We're just asking for a little common courtesy. We don't need you guys waltzing around the ATC systems like you own the joint.

I

You know, I think that's all anyone asks for; a little common courtesy.

 

[cmill]

I'm glad you know what my FOM was meant to do, which operator are you working for?

I know where you're you're coming from, and i respect that. Believe it or not, ive spent about 3 of the past six years working 135, im a company instructor pilot, and im next in line to be a check airman at my company (southern seaplane.) Not all of us crazy float pilots are 134.5

I know what the FOM is there for, and you gotta follow it. Luckily, our opsecs gives us a lot of leeway. Follow the opspecs, but dont defend them blindly.

If you have no other reason to do something than that its in my opsecs, then say that. Dont grasp at straws and try and come up with excuses though. Thats all im driving at.

 

[Alchemy]

This thread is so awesome I just had to find a reason to chime in.

Here's what the FOM at some random 121 operator says about the issue

If cancelling an IFR flight plan, the flightcrew may operate under VFR in the terminal area under the provisions below. In addition, the flighcrew may not conduct VFR operations in the terminal area unless the weather permits the flightcrew to identify and avoid obstacles and safely maneuver using external visual references to maintain minimum altitudes.

- Reported ceiling and visibility cannot be lower than 1000 ft and 1 statute mile visibility
- The flight maintains a pattern altitude of 1500 ft minimum
- At uncontrolled airports, the flight must be in direct communication with an air/ground communication facility or an agent of the company that provides airport traffic advisories and information pertinent to the conditions on and around the landing surface during the terminal phase of flight, and the flight is operated within 10 NM of the destination airport, or visual reference with the landing surface is established and can be maintained throughout the approach and landing
- At controlled airports the flight must be operated within Class B, C, or D airspace, or within 10 NM of the destination in Class E airspace; and in each case remains within controlled airspace. The flightcrew will request and use radar-monitored traffic advisories provided by ATC when such advisories are available, and is in direct communication with the appropriate ATC facility.

Flight crews should use caution when making a decision to operate VFR. There are many situations where this action may in fact be legal but not not a prudent course of action. VFR operations at or near minimum VFR weather conditions is not recommended.

That's it. Nothing about when to cancel. I think I've only landed uncontrolled twice in six years of 121 flying. I'm pretty sure we canceled with center on the taxi-in once clear of the runway last time, but honestly it's a detail that escapes me. Usually when we deal with uncontrolled airports it's for an 0530 departure at a place that doesn't open their tower until 0600. In those cases I almost always wait until we're just about to the end of the runway until asking the FO to get the clearance.