Consultant Sees Scope Relaxation Coming for US Airlines

jtrain609 said:
Solution: portable longevity.

We can out fox management, or we can continue to follow their lead.

Currently we're following their lead.
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I'm all for it, man. I'd be a LOT less concerned about 9E going under if that meant I could start out at Comair or Mesaba at least making the same $$$ I make now. Given what I've seen lately about pilots helping pilots, though, I'll believe it when the ink is dry on paper.
 
jtrain609 said:
Solution: portable longevity.

We can out fox management, or we can continue to follow their lead.

Currently we're following their lead.
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JTrain, you were on the right track when you talked about changing the way you do things. But you have to stop thinking like a pilot, and start thinking like a businessman. Business is nothing more than a endless series of cost-benefit analyis decisions. If the benefits outweight the costs, then the answer is yes. If not, the answer is no.

What is the incentive to hire a guy who is going to bring, say, 5 years longevity with him if the company has to pay him 5th year wages. The company will just hire an inexperienced pilot.

What I'm saying to you is that, if you want to see an improvement in your job, then you have to figure a way to put yourself on the benefit side of that analysis rather than the cost side. I don't know what that would be, but as a group, airline pilots are pretty smart. You can figure it out.
 
O&M said:
JTrain, you were on the right track when you talked about changing the way you do things. But you have to stop thinking like a pilot, and start thinking like a businessman. Business is nothing more than a endless series of cost-benefit analyis decisions. If the benefits outweight the costs, then the answer is yes. If not, the answer is no.

What is the incentive to hire a guy who is going to bring, say, 5 years longevity with him if the company has to pay him 5th year wages. The company will just hire an inexperienced pilot.

What I'm saying to you is that, if you want to see an improvement in your job, then you have to figure a way to put yourself on the benefit side of that analysis rather than the cost side. I don't know what that would be, but as a group, airline pilots are pretty smart. You can figure it out.
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Quite the contrary, pilots need to think like businessmen in order to head them off at the pass before they screw us.

I don't know if you've gotten it yet, but airline management doesn't care about us. They shouldn't. They should give a crap if we have jobs or not. WE should care about whether we have jobs or not, and only by doing things that insure our future will be get anywhere in life.

I don't want management to care about me. I don't want them to be my friend. Instead, I want to enter into contracutal agreements that force their hand when it comes to me. I care much more about the legal requirements of a contract than I do about touchy feely relationships with management, or quite frankly their economic analysis.

As an actor in the economic analysis, I want to skew the numbers in MY favor as much as possible.

YOU might not care, and YOU might want to be a nice guy.

I don't want to be nice; I want to make money through a contractual relationship that I enter into with an employer.

Anything else is worthless to me.

You still haven't PMed me your address.
 
I thought Spirit's recent job action was an excellent demonstration of the benefits of pilots in anyone's cost-benefit analysis.
I hope this isnt too insulting but O&M reads like a 19 year old taking his or her first business administration course.
 
So with discussions of regional growth/hiring/recalls occurring, is this a good thing overall? Or is this taking away more flying that should be at the mainline, as some advocate? Is regional growth "bad for business" for the industry as a whole, so to speak?

I ask because on one hand I see people advocating how a good amount of regional flying should go back to mainline ala scope, etc. Then, same people are excited about this or that regional hiring or expanding, yet doing so by flying the same flying, or more of it, that they advocate should be at the mainlines. Doesn't sound like it can go both ways successfully.
 
MikeD said:
So with discussions of regional growth/hiring/recalls occurring, is this a good thing overall? Or is this taking away more flying that should be at the mainline, as some advocate? Is regional growth "bad for business" for the industry as a whole, so to speak?

I ask because on one hand I see people advocating how a good amount of regional flying should go back to mainline ala scope, etc. Then, same people are excited about this or that regional hiring or expanding, yet doing so by flying the same flying, or more of it, that they advocate should be at the mainlines. Doesn't sound like it can go both ways successfully.
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You're seeing a correction of the past two years where significant economic pressure brought an overall reduction in capacity across the industry Mike. Not necessarily a transfer of "Mainline" flying to "Contract" flying.

Mainline partners are slowly increasing capacity to match demand, across all sectors, which is starting at the contract lift providers initially.

So I don't think you really have an argument regarding contract "growth" since the growth - historically - is still no where near the highest levels of contract flying, just a correction of capacity from mainline partners to their contract providers.

Contract companies stopped hiring and furloughed in significant numbers due to the pull down of block hours from their mainline partners due to the economic pressures put on the industry. They're recalling - and potentially hiring - due to a relaxation of these pressures and forecasted capacity increases through 2011. You may have a valid question in regards to honest "growth" after 2011, but I think it's far too early to try to gauge that environment right now.

Hopefully that addresses your last paragraph. Very few of us are wanting anything both ways right now. A return to proper staffing is not connected with professionals wanting to improve their career expectations and prospects and how the elements of mainline and contract carrier relationships are managed. What you do see is a short term outlook as well as a long term outlook, not a single outlook for different periods of time.

I wont even address the "bad for business" comment, as Doug put it earlier - it's not our job to run our respective companies - it's to protect our professional worth and value and rebuilding the profession, not to decide what is good or bad for business - I'll leave that to the free market capitalists sitting in the boardrooms. :)
 
surreal1221 said:
You're seeing a correction of the past two years where significant economic pressure brought an overall reduction in capacity across the industry Mike. Not necessarily a transfer of "Mainline" flying to "Contract" flying.

Mainline partners are slowly increasing capacity to match demand, across all sectors, which is starting at the contract lift providers initially.

So I don't think you really have an argument regarding contract "growth" since the growth - historically - is still no where near the highest levels of contract flying, just a correction of capacity from mainline partners to their contract providers.

Contract companies stopped hiring and furloughed in significant numbers due to the pull down of block hours from their mainline partners due to the economic pressures put on the industry. They're recalling - and potentially hiring - due to a relaxation of these pressures and forecasted capacity increases through 2011. You may have a valid question in regards to honest "growth" after 2011, but I think it's far too early to try to gauge that environment right now.

Hopefully that addresses your last paragraph. Very few of us are wanting anything both ways right now. A return to proper staffing is not connected with professionals wanting to improve their career expectations and prospects and how the elements of mainline and contract carrier relationships are managed. What you do see is a short term outlook as well as a long term outlook, not a single outlook for different periods of time.

I wont even address the "bad for business" comment, as Doug put it earlier - it's not our job to run our respective companies - it's to protect our professional worth and value and rebuilding the profession, not to decide what is good or bad for business - I'll leave that to the free market capitalists sitting in the boardrooms. :)
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I wasn't making any argument, per se; just noting an observation that seemed contradictory. But the answers you give answer what I was asking. And I should clarify.....by "bad for business", I wasn't referring to business/management side; but moreso would it be a bad thing for future available mainline jobs by growth of the regional.....ie- bad for business for the pilots interests. Its great to see guys getting recalled and even growth happening. Hopefully, it's what guys want and we're seeing the low point and now reversal of the trends in the industry from the past years.

Either way, I hope guys get what they're seeking in order to better their industry. Lord knows it hasn't been an easy battle for you guys, but hopefully thats reversing itself now.
 
How do you enforce any contract negotiation? You spend your negotiation capital on it, like you do on pay rates, work rules, insurance, etc.
 
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