Flow Chart

[Seggy]

I always enjoy facilitating good CRM between all parties involved and those who I have flown with on here can attest to that.

However, a friend, who works at a regional airline was discussing that at his airline they have dispatchers, flight attendants, crew schedulers, mechanics, gate agents, etc., who think they are all above the PIC authority. This is a common theme when talking to another member on here on the phone a few times as we discussed quite in length about the 'erosion of the fourth stripe'.

My friend was bored on an overnight and created the attached flow chart so he can remember how it really goes and sent it around. Thought I would share it!

 

[jtrain609]

You know what the difference between God and an airline captain is?

God doesn't think he's an airline captain.

 

[Seggy]

Like I am saying, I am not Captain Jacob Louis Veldhuyzen van Zanten, but others need to know their place.

I have been having to many conversations with other regional pilots about this recently. In indoc they should be teaching about PIC Authority to other employee groups.

 

[mxflyer]

You know what the difference between God and an airline captain is?

God doesn't think he's an airline captain.

:laff:

 

[Minuteman]

Where's the bad dude who wrote the opspec in there?

 

[Table Two]

obligitory *giggidy*

 

[Qgar]

Ya know I love you, Mark, and I certainly don't condone disrespect or insubordination. HOWEVER, some guys with 4 stripes need to ACT like guys with 4 stripes. If you act like a wuss who's not willing to exert their authority (or help/protect their crew) for fear of being disliked/written-up, etc., then you get what's coming to you.

BTW, I love your chart!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Ya know I love you, Mark, and I certainly don't condone disrespect or insubordination. HOWEVER, some guys with 4 stripes need to ACT like guys with 4 stripes. If you act like a wuss who's not willing to exert their authority (or help/protect their crew) for fear of being disliked/written-up, etc., then you get what's coming to you.

BTW, I love your chart!

This can be difficult. At my company, we have an FA who is so notorious for making problems for flightdeck crewmembers that even people who have never met them know all about them. I've flown with this particular FA and made it a point to handle them with kid gloves and absolutely sterile professional courtesy. The thought of asserting myself should a point requiring me to do so come up made me grit my teeth. I can only imagine how the Captain felt.

Asking for leadership from the Captain is the right of every crew member. Good leadership is something I wish the airline business had more of these days. But it does work both ways. The first thing I was ever taught about leadership was that to be a good leader, you must first be a good follower. That means that the followers in an organization- those subordinate to the Captain- are very much a part of setting the tone of leadership as well.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Sure, but 4 stripes, doesn't give you the ability to do whatever you want whenever you want. Like turning an engine on and cycling the reversers to clear a problem without telling anyone while the rampers are all still working the bags. Or telling the gate agent that my wife WILL be getting on this oversold airplane (nonrev) and it's my problem to figure it all out. Or the guy that wouldn't tell us anything about a MX probelm that ended up cancelling the flight to tell the passengers, then when he came back the next week he asked about the whole situation in the third person, then when I called him on it, he started this obscene rant over the pushback headset.

The great captains, know when to not exercise their authority too. Its the piss poor captains that push their authority ALL the time.

 

[Hacker15e]

they have dispatchers, flight attendants, crew schedulers, mechanics, gate agents, etc., who think they are all above the PIC authority.

Don't think that this is limited to the airline industry, either.

In the USAF, we've had a cultural erosion of the airplane and the people who operate it as the focus of our operations, and the various support functions serving only to support that airplane and the people who operate it.

In much the same vein as the 'participation ribbon' has leveled out the achievement playing field and made everyone an equal, in the USAF we have made everyone a 'warrior', and elevated everyone's job to equal importance.

Now things have reversed -- it is the "support warriors" who become the focus of operations. Everyone has to bend over backward to meet THEIR schedule and meet THEIR demands. To the point that airplanes don't get fixed or flown sometimes in order that the operations schedule can work in with the support schedule.

I've been floored to hear more than one support agency talk about how much easier it would be to do their job if those pesky pilots and airplanes weren't around.

 

[Blackhawk]

Don't think that this is limited to the airline industry, either.

In the USAF, we've had a cultural erosion of the airplane and the people who operate it as the focus of our operations, and the various support functions serving only to support that airplane and the people who operate it.

In much the same vein as the 'participation ribbon' has leveled out the achievement playing field and made everyone an equal, in the USAF we have made everyone a 'warrior', and elevated everyone's job to equal importance.

Now things have reversed -- it is the "support warriors" who become the focus of operations. Everyone has to bend over backward to meet THEIR schedule and meet THEIR demands. To the point that airplanes don't get fixed or flown sometimes in order that the operations schedule can work in with the support schedule.

I've been floored to hear more than one support agency talk about how much easier it would be to do their job if those pesky pilots and airplanes weren't around.

In the '90s I was an operations officer for the air element of a JSOTF operating out of Hurlburt. Our targets were all at Ft. Polk, inserting both SEALs or Special Forces at night on long missions. When we told the Air Force the times of our missions, we were informed that the tower would be closed. No biggy, we said, we don't need no stinking control tower. We were given looks of shock- first I learned that when an Air Force control tower closes the airfield is closed and you can not operate in/out. When we suggested they keep the tower open we were told they could not do that, especially on a weekend. We would need to change the times of our missions. We tried to explain that this was a very large operation with a bunch of moving parts- picking up operators from ships, inserting them into targets 100's of miles away- and we could not change the times just because some E-4 did not want to work at 0300. No luck. We actually had to get some people at the Pentagon level involved. Even then we could hear the whining about it over the engine noise.

 

[ready2fly]

This can be difficult. At my company, we have an FA who is so notorious for making problems for flightdeck crewmembers that even people who have never met them know all about them. I've flown with this particular FA and made it a point to handle them with kid gloves and absolutely sterile professional courtesy. The thought of asserting myself should a point requiring me to do so come up made me grit my teeth. I can only imagine how the Captain felt.

Think I know who you are referring to: D.A.?? If so, I've also flown with that particular FA. It's uncomfortable to say the least. Like handling a bomb.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Think I know who you are referring to: D.A.?? If so, I've also flown with that particular FA. It's uncomfortable to say the least. Like handling a bomb.

Then you know what I mean, then. Even as the 'other' pilot, working with certain crewmembers in today's legalistic society is very delicate at times.

OldTownPilot has a good counterpoint, too, though. "Captain's Authority" is based on legal responsibility and executed through leadership. There are plenty of Captains out there who recognize neither beyond saving their own hides.

 

[chris]

Thats an awesome chart!

 

[Qgar]

Think I know who you are referring to: D.A.?? If so, I've also flown with that particular FA. It's uncomfortable to say the least. Like handling a bomb.

Then you know what I mean, then. Even as the 'other' pilot, working with certain crewmembers in today's legalistic society is very delicate at times.

OldTownPilot has a good counterpoint, too, though. "Captain's Authority" is based on legal responsibility and executed through leadership. There are plenty of Captains out there who recognize neither beyond saving their own hides.

I'm assuming Inflight has been made aware of the problem-child?

 

[Firebird2XC]

I'm assuming Inflight has been made aware of the problem-child?

The company is very aware. It's an odd situation.

 

[ready2fly]

I'm assuming Inflight has been made aware of the problem-child?

Yes. Apparently, this particular FA has been "banned" from two bases, yet this persons CONSTANT threats of legal action has the company scared to remove this person from duty alltogether.

Believe me, it's always a volitile situation when this FA is part of your crew. We've all been briefed to ONLY answer this FA's questions with short, direct, answers and to NEVER ask any "personal" questions like "How was your night?" or "How are you today?" or "Where are you from?" or "Did you sleep well?"...these such questions have frequently been met with Article 32 filings by this FA against many, MANY crewmembers for "invasion of privacy.

 

[Qgar]

The company is very aware. It's an odd situation.

Odd and sad. I know people don't get fired the first time there's a complaint about them, but this seems like a festering wound.

 

[sherpa]

in the end, if you say "no", the plane doesn't move no matter how much "authority" anyone thinks they have over you.

Kills me when people give you attitude because they think your directives are a display of power as opposed to the fact that 1. you are the ONLY one that has all of the information to make decisions and 2. you are ultimately held responsible for what happens from the time the first passenger boards with the intent to fly until the last passenger deplanes.

 

[Orange Anchor]

This can be difficult. At my company, we have an FA who is so notorious for making problems for flightdeck crewmembers that even people who have never met them know all about them. I've flown with this particular FA and made it a point to handle them with kid gloves and absolutely sterile professional courtesy.

Sounds like a cultural problem. You should not have to issue special privilege to anyone including 'kid glove handling'. This is not to say one should be predisposed to a given action but since this individual is well known, the behavior well known, it seems an individual briefing would be in order with questions to find where the problems lie. And if they can NOT be resolved before pushback, that person is replaced. To coddle bad behavior is to encourage it and that means others may decide to also go rogue.

That means that the followers in an organization- those subordinate to the Captain- are very much a part of setting the tone of leadership as well.

The person charged with the responsibility for the team has the backing of policy and procedure for the overall tone. A good briefing merely reinforces that cultural concept of 'this is who we are and this is what we do." If some one wants to sing off key, they can do it on their own time. Of course, before consigning someone to go sing solo, it may be a good idea to find out what the motivation is but still, a decision has to be made. And even without guidance to a specific goal or vision, a culture will still form. The only question remaining is if that culture develops into a cohesive and functioning team.