Speed Limit

AviatorGator said:
That's nice. I'm well aware of the regulation thank you.

My question still stands...
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Maybe you missed this part; "...When we queried him further, he stated that his facility chief had briefed [several companies] on the need to fly at 200 KIAS below the Class B airspace..."?

Or are you saying that you want to see more than anecdotal evidence that the 200 knots below the Bravo is enforceable and enforced?

:confused:
 
SteveC said:
Maybe you missed this part; "...When we queried him further, he stated that his facility chief had briefed [several companies] on the need to fly at 200 KIAS below the Class B airspace..."?

Or are you saying that you want to see more than anecdotal evidence that the 200 knots below the Bravo is enforceable and enforced?

:confused:
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Don't bother. I'm guessing this industry has about a decade left of any viability as a career. After that, it will be mostly overrun by hacks and wannabes whom the rules don't apply and everything has to be justified and spelled out in terms of actual enforcement.

Sounds like a great place to spend your time at 600 MPH, 6 miles in the air :rolleyes:
 
njdem82 said:
Hello All,
This is a silly scenario but it will actually clear some things up for me. Basically Im going through FARS and thinking up some possible conflicts Im using speed in this example but there are other things which can be substituted.

ATC says "240 on the heading maintain 400 knots" .
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Flying an old 727? If so, you're the King and the King can do whatever he wants!
 
SteveC said:
Maybe you missed this part; "...When we queried him further, he stated that his facility chief had briefed [several companies] on the need to fly at 200 KIAS below the Class B airspace..."?

Or are you saying that you want to see more than anecdotal evidence that the 200 knots below the Bravo is enforceable and enforced?

:confused:
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I didn't miss anything. I read the NASA publication that he hyperlinked. I'll ask again...I am asking everyone/anyone out there for specific cases where pilot's have actually been violated for going too fast under the bravo shelf. I'm curious. This by no means implies that I don't agree with the reg or don't follow it because it isn't enforced.

Dugie8 said:
Don't bother. I'm guessing this industry has about a decade left of any viability as a career. After that, it will be mostly overrun by hacks and wannabes whom the rules don't apply and everything has to be justified and spelled out in terms of actual enforcement.

Sounds like a great place to spend your time at 600 MPH, 6 miles in the air :rolleyes:
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Certainly that was directed at other pilots you've come in contact with, not me. In the past week alone I have slowed to 200kts or less three times because we were operating under a Bravo shelf.

I play by the rules.
 
AviatorGator said:
I didn't miss anything. I read the NASA publication that he hyperlinked. I'll ask again...I am asking everyone/anyone out there for specific cases where pilot's have actually been violated for going too fast under the bravo shelf. I'm curious. This by no means implies that I don't agree with the reg or don't follow it because it isn't enforced.
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Ah, then you are "...saying that you want to see more than anecdotal evidence that the 200 knots below the Bravo is enforceable and enforced?"

Gotcha.

:bandit:
 
AviatorGator said:
So can anyone here show any case law where a pilot was violated for doing greater than 200kts below the class B shelf?
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Dugie8 said:
You shouldn't need any "case law" since it is regulatory. Here is a pretty good example.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_323.htm
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AviatorGator said:
That's nice. I'm well aware of the regulation thank you.

My question still stands...
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SteveC said:
Maybe you missed this part; "...When we queried him further, he stated that his facility chief had briefed [several companies] on the need to fly at 200 KIAS below the Class B airspace..."?

Or are you saying that you want to see more than anecdotal evidence that the 200 knots below the Bravo is enforceable and enforced?

:confused:
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Actually, I think his question was quite straightforward.:rolleyes: If you don't know the answer, let midlifeflyer or Tgrayson answer it. Both of your answers were non responsive to the question.
 
Old Pete said:
why would you be embarrassed?
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Because a non-responsive answer to a straight forward question is so...so...gauche.

blush-anim-cl.gif
 
SteveC said:
Because a non-responsive answer to a straight forward question is so...so...gauche.

blush-anim-cl.gif
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Ah, and I thought it was because I pointed out that you were being a bit condescending, it's just so unlike you.... and using those french words-that's just not fair.
 
Hi All,
Thank You for the spirited responses. I may have missed something but I remain confused. I realize that my original post was vague on a few things so pls allow me to clarify and simplify. If I still have not sone so , I apologize and please let me know how I can refine my question.

I am on an IFR flight plan and in IMC, ATC vectors me into Bravo airspace (under 10000 MSL) and asks me to maintain 400 knots. I cannot get through because there is too much radio chatter. I stay on my assigned heading as to not violate 91.123 and comply with an ATC directive. However I am now at 400 knots in Bravo airspace under 10,000 MSL.

It seems that I am cleared into Bravo . In this situation is ATC assuming that I will drop my speed to 250 kts?? Without any further instruction should I slow down or should I maintain 400 knots as instructed and not deviate from 91.123?? Does 91.123 take precedence over the 250 knot limit (in this scenario) and therefore I should keep my speed up at 400 knots though this is clearly in violation of the speed limit under 10,000 msl . Thank You
 
Old Pete said:
Ah, and I thought it was because I pointed out that you were being a bit condescending, it's just so unlike you.... and using those french words-that's just not fair.
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Shoot, I missed the condescending part. I maybe could have had something witty to say.
crying.gif
 
njdem82 said:
Hi All,
Thank You for the spirited responses. I may have missed something but I remain confused. I realize that my original post was vague on a few things so pls allow me to clarify and simplify. If I still have not sone so , I apologize and please let me know how I can refine my question.

I am on an IFR flight plan and in IMC, ATC vectors me into Bravo airspace (under 10000 MSL) and asks me to maintain 400 knots. I cannot get through because there is too much radio chatter. I stay on my assigned heading as to not violate 91.123 and comply with an ATC directive. However I am now at 400 knots in Bravo airspace under 10,000 MSL.

It seems that I am cleared into Bravo . In this situation is ATC assuming that I will drop my speed to 250 kts?? Without any further instruction should I slow down or should I maintain 400 knots as instructed and not deviate from 91.123?? Does 91.123 take precedence over the 250 knot limit (in this scenario) and therefore I should keep my speed up at 400 knots though this is clearly in violation of the speed limit under 10,000 msl . Thank You
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Well, here is my take on your scenario.

91.117(a) Says that "unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" you cannot exceed 250kts of indicated airspeed below 10,000' MSL. So, once you descend below 10,000' there is no excuse to be fast than 250kts unless you have a waiver from the administrator. My understanding has been that ATC is NOT the administrator so you must be at 250kts or less.

Now, if you're below the B shelf, 91.117(c) says you need to be at 200kts or less. However, (c) does not include the "unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" clause. Interestingly enough, 91.117(b) allows ATC to authorize a speed of greater than 200kts at their request (if so required) as it applies to class C and D airports.

Long story short, you need to be at 250kts or less below 10k. Period. For the rest of the example, ask for clarification from ATC. I would also say, especially below the shelf, too slow is better than too fast.

Case law anyone?
 
its very simply, if given a speed greater than 250 kts and given a decent below 10000" maintain that speed to 10000 than slow to 250 and continue decent to cleared alt.same if cleared below the B ,level off at base of the B slow to 200 contimue to decend .
 
The two other responses cleared up most things, I just wanted to add (since in your original question and twice in the last post you implied you were looking for a Bravo clearance from ATC) and stated:

"ATC vectors me into Bravo airspace (under 10000 MSL)" and
"It seems that I am cleared into Bravo "

This is irrelavent under IFR for the "entering" Bravo part. The rules would be identical, and you would have to slow to 250 at 10,000 if they vectored you into class C, D, E, or G under 10,000. You are IFR and you already have a clearance to enter Bravo or any other airspace that complies with your IFR clearance.

I assume your clearance limit and clearance instructions, or subsequent clearance, included routing which took you into Bravo.

VFR is a whole different story which is where I think some of your confusion is.

The under 10,000 needs to be followed and ATC cannot waive that. The administrator's approval usually means that if it is unsafe to fly a certain aircraft clean wing below 250 knots then they get approval for that make/model to waive the speed restriction.
 
falcon20pilot said:
The under 10,000 needs to be followed and ATC cannot waive that. The administrator's approval usually means that if it is unsafe to fly a certain aircraft clean wing below 250 knots then they get approval for that make/model to waive the speed restriction.
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Yes. Many fighter-type aircraft are 300 or more below 10k.
 
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