Speed Limit

N

njdem82

New Member
Hello All,
This is a silly scenario but it will actually clear some things up for me. Basically Im going through FARS and thinking up some possible conflicts Im using speed in this example but there are other things which can be substituted.

ATC says "240 on the heading maintain 400 knots" . This heading sends you into a Bravo as per your flight plan. Now you cannot get through to them because of alot of radio "traffic" or lost comms. So are you cleared into Bravo?? I suppose you are (91.123 [Paraphrase] Once a clearance has been obtained no PIC may deviate unless in an emergency).

So that seems to clearly say that you must enter the Bravo even without the magical words "cleared into Bravo" but what about the assigned speed??? Slowing to 250 knots would be a deviation of the ATC clearance (again you cannot reach ATC) but you would be busting the speed limit of that airspace. What would you do?? Thank You
 
For this scenario IFR

I am choosing IFR to place more responsibility on ATC for seperation if one is IMC and cannot do much about seperation beyond listening to their prompts. I did not think about this when I was thinking up this scenario which brings up a question --- Is this why the distinction between VFR and IFR is important here (because of the pilot's vs ATC's amount of responsibility for seperation)?? Am I missing some other reasons why this difference would effect the best decision here or the scenario in general?
 
njdem82 said:
What would you do?? Thank You
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  1. If you're IFR, you don't need a Class B clearance.
  2. If you're VFR, the NTSB has determined that a heading and altitude assignment constitutes an implied Class B clearance.
  3. There is no specific speed limit in Class B airspace.
  4. ATC instructions do not take precedence over the regulations, unless ATC has been granted explicit authority to waive the regulation. ATC cannot waive the 250 below 10,000 regulation.
  5. Lost communications is arguably an emergency.
 
There is a bravo speed limit, well if under the floors of it. I don't remember the exact place it is but for turbojet aircraft when under Bravo airspace floors the limit is 210kts if the aircraft is going to the airport the bravo is created for.
 
rherrick said:
There is a bravo speed limit, well if under the floors of it. I don't remember the exact place it is but for turbojet aircraft when under Bravo airspace floors the limit is 210kts if the aircraft is going to the airport the bravo is created for.
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Oh, so close! Try FAR 91.117 for the correct answer. :)

(By the way, it doesn't matter what the aircraft destination might be, nor the type of aircraft. ANYTIME any aircraft is under the Class B the airspeed limitation applies.)
 
200 knots beneath class B airspace. (Which by the way is the most preposterous regulation there is. For those of us who are flying IFR into an airport beneath the class B it can be a real challenge to comply, especially when the tier is defined by a highway or river).

There is NO specific speed limit within class B. 250 below 10,000, Mach 1 above. So if you're in the middle of Class B at 12,000 feet... go as fast as you want. (slowing will just get you a talking to by ATC)
 
Here's an example that our aircraft fly on a regular basis. We are based at GRR, and do a lot of pickups and drop-offs at Chicago Executive, KPWK, which is located just north of O'Hare, KORD.

The usual routing is GRR-WURKO-OBK-PWK. I've attached a drawing showing the old routing of GRR-PAPPI-OBK-PWK, which gets the point across (WURKO is located about 15 miles NE of PAPPI). The normal clearance will have us crossing WURKO (or PAPPI) at 3,000 feet, then another step-down prior to reaching OBK. You'll see that this passes underneath the 3,600 foot shelf of the Class B airspace, so the speed limit applies.

2367-pwk.jpg
 
Have never slowed below 250 below/in/around class B airspace and have never had a problem. Have been asked regularly to hold 240 until the marker by ATC. Go figure.
 
BajtheJino said:
Have never slowed below 250 below/in/around class B airspace and have never had a problem. Have been asked regularly to hold 240 until the marker by ATC. Go figure.
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I've had New York approach yell at me for slowing because we were under the bravo. "You can't just slow down without me telling you to!", "We've been vectored under the bravo", "Roger".
 
BajtheJino said:
Have never slowed below 250 below/in/around class B airspace and have never had a problem. Have been asked regularly to hold 240 until the marker by ATC. Go figure.
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Unfortunately your past experience does not constitute license to violate the FAR in the future (now that you've been made aware). We don't get to pick and choose which ones to follow and which to ignore.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Unfortunately your past experience does not constitute license to violate the FAR in the future (now that you've been made aware). We don't get to pick and choose which ones to follow and which to ignore.
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Oh, Lawdy! I sho' don't want to be breakin no mo' laws Cap'in. I think I'll just do what needs to be done to get the job done and to help expedite the flow of traffic.
 
So can anyone here show any case law where a pilot was violated for doing greater than 200kts below the class B shelf?
 
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