Aerobatic instruction

Mattio

Mattio

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, was wondering if you had any tips on getting into aerobatic instruction. I'm getting my tailwheel this summer and after that it's on to figuring out how to come up with the money to get into acro.

Do you guys have any general ideas about going from no acro time to acro instructor? More specifically, do you know how much time it takes to go from zero to hero? (I've got about 2700 hours and 1100 dual) Also, do you know if insurance generally requires a certain amount of acro experience before teaching?

Thanks!!
 
I ended up being the Aerobatic instructor for Sierra Academy of Aeronautics basically by basically being in the right place at the right time. I had my TW endorsement and went through the acro course at UND. I offered to ferry the citbrea from Houston to SFO and that was it. Had maybe 10 hours of TW time. My suggestion is going to the flight schools that are doing contract Chinese work. They required 5 hours of aerobatic time each, at least that was the requirement of the students we had.

=Jason-
 
Well there is a big difference between the insurance letting you and actually be ready to teach aerobatics. One the biggest problems I see with aerobatic instruction is that there is alot of guys out there teaching aerobatics that had bad habits of their own that they pass on to their students. I'm not a aerobatic master but I do fly some with the goal of becoming a airshow pilot and I can tell you that the good aerobatic instructors are far and few between. When looking for a aerobatic instructor to do your flying with look for someone who is a competitor on a regular basics and scores well. This will tell you that they know how to fly the manuevers correctly. Now now all good aerobatic instructors compete but if you have nothing else to go off this will help. Probaly your best bet is to go to a well respected aerobatic school like micheal goulians or sean tuckers and go from there. Just please dont get a few hours of instruction then try to teach someone something you dont know that much about.
 
Inverted25 said:
Well there is a big difference between the insurance letting you and actually be ready to teach aerobatics. One the biggest problems I see with aerobatic instruction is that there is alot of guys out there teaching aerobatics that had bad habits of their own that they pass on to their students. I'm not a aerobatic master but I do fly some with the goal of becoming a airshow pilot and I can tell you that the good aerobatic instructors are far and few between. When looking for a aerobatic instructor to do your flying with look for someone who is a competitor on a regular basics and scores well. This will tell you that they know how to fly the manuevers correctly. Now now all good aerobatic instructors compete but if you have nothing else to go off this will help. Probaly your best bet is to go to a well respected aerobatic school like micheal goulians or sean tuckers and go from there. Just please dont get a few hours of instruction then try to teach someone something you dont know that much about.
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:yeahthat:

My first and only aerobatic instructor (Bruce Everett from Philadelphia) was the east coast unlimited category champion a few years previously and had a ton of experience teaching. He told me much of the same advice listed above. Find somebody who competes and has experience.

Almost anybody can get a plane upside down and rightside up again. Doing it safely and *correctly* is another story...
 
Inverted25 said:
Well there is a big difference between the insurance letting you and actually be ready to teach aerobatics. One the biggest problems I see with aerobatic instruction is that there is alot of guys out there teaching aerobatics that had bad habits of their own that they pass on to their students. I'm not a aerobatic master but I do fly some with the goal of becoming a airshow pilot and I can tell you that the good aerobatic instructors are far and few between. When looking for a aerobatic instructor to do your flying with look for someone who is a competitor on a regular basics and scores well. This will tell you that they know how to fly the manuevers correctly. Now now all good aerobatic instructors compete but if you have nothing else to go off this will help. Probaly your best bet is to go to a well respected aerobatic school like micheal goulians or sean tuckers and go from there. Just please dont get a few hours of instruction then try to teach someone something you dont know that much about.
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This is gold.

OP: Before you instruct, you should consider competing in an IAC event at the sportsman level. There are a few people out there who will teach you, and then fly 'safety' pilot while you go through your routine. It is extremely humbling to enter the world of competition aerobatics.

Also, in my humble opinion... real upset training is a pre-requisite to aerobatics.. not that CFI 172 spin endorsement stuff.. mostly real spin recovery, cloverleafs, etc. Many people say they can handle a spin by just applying the technique they've learned. Well, when you screw up a snap roll or lomcevak and you have no idea what is happening to the airplane.. am I in an inverted flat? about to go in? did I depart yet? The adrenaline and vertigo combined with something as responsive as a Pitts can cause you apply too much spin correction and get into a cross-over spin (i.e. going from an upright flat to a inverted flat in the other direction).

If you're ever in the Annapolis area, I recommend going up with Bill Finagin in his Pitts - he offers a great checkout course, as well as spin recovery and aero. He was inducted into the Aerobatic hall of fame and the first to be given a surface level ACE card for waivered airspace.
 
Ill reply to this as well when I get a chance. The school I taught at was pretty strict regarding acro instruction as well as upset recovery instruction. Both courses were known more or less around the world and brought students in from everywhere.

As one person mentioned, you couldnt teach acro until you could compete acro. You also could not teach acro until you could recover from nearly every possible error from every maneuver that you taught and a few more as well. On top of that you couldnt teach acro until you taught unusual attitudes for quite a while.

Not many schools do that...you have a tailwheel endorsement and 5 hours and can fly a sloppy uncoordinated loop? Good, you are the new acro guy.

When I get a few minutes ill PM you what I know.
 
Thanks for the responses, guys. I actually live about an hour from Mike Goulian's school... I've never done aerobatics so I wasn't really sure of the time that goes into being able to teach it. I was hoping that I'd be able to teach the maneuvers adequately after a certain amount of experience because, of course, money is a big issue.

I'd love to be doing aerobatics regularly and getting paid for it, so I'm trying to figure out how much money I'd have to invest to get to that point. I'd like to think I'm a good stick and hope I'd learn quickly.
 
Mattio said:
I've never done aerobatics so I wasn't really sure of the time that goes into being able to teach it. I was hoping that I'd be able to teach the maneuvers adequately after a certain amount of experience because, of course, money is a big issue.
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It's really amazing what you can learn from acro, it's very tough to be good. A lot of run of the mill trainers cover up a lot of mistakes most people never knew they had until they get into something that requires precision. It's really not too expensive to get started in an IAC competition if you work at it in, say, a Super Decathlon or something versus a Pitts or Extra. I think the going rate for a SuperD with good aerobatic instruction is like $180/hr. The average is like 10-15hrs to be at the sportsman level for IAC competition.

In order to do something symmetrical you have to think ahead about what kind of placement and energy you're going to have... it's really an art form.

Don't be suprised if it takes a while to get a loop really good - it sounds simple, but in reality it requires a lot of finesse... which is really easy compared to doing a good snap roll.

I can't imagine trying to teach all of that -and I have a decent amount of acro time.
 
Mattio said:
Are you an instructor?
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No, I'm not an instuctor.. I was very fortunate to get time doing various things from flying jumpers to single pilot part 91 ops flying a 421.

I'm still in the process of learning things myself (started at 16 years old...now 26)... not sure I have the experience to be able to teach someone else correctly. Flown with a few rough, new instructors who have absolutely no idea what they're teaching... just don't want to be that guy.

Flew with a pilot who was an MEI the other day for his insurance time in type...he had something like 20 total ME PIC... he didn't know what the heck he was doing... hard to believe he was actually a multi-engine instructor.

Just a personal choice I guess... wouldn't mind doing it as a retirement thing.

Sorry, I'm sure that was more than you asked for.
 
ryan1234 said:
No, I'm not an instuctor.. I was very fortunate to get time doing various things from flying jumpers to single pilot part 91 ops flying a 421.

I'm still in the process of learning things myself (started at 16 years old...now 26)... not sure I have the experience to be able to teach someone else correctly. Flown with a few rough, new instructors who have absolutely no idea what they're teaching... just don't want to be that guy.

Flew with a pilot who was an MEI the other day for his insurance time in type...he had something like 20 total ME PIC... he didn't know what the heck he was doing... hard to believe he was actually a multi-engine instructor.

Just a personal choice I guess... wouldn't mind doing it as a retirement thing.

Sorry, I'm sure that was more than you asked for.
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No, I appreciate it.... Always good to know where people are coming from. I've got about 3 years of active instructing experience and I think that will help. That, coupled with a desire to be as knowledgeable as possible because it's a very good possibility that I'm going to pursue a career path in the instructing field (if the stars align).

Do you or anybody know how many hours aerobatic instructors can put in? I know that it takes a toll on you and you have to build up a tolerance. How often can an experienced instructor go up on lessons?
 
Mattio said:
No, I appreciate it.... Always good to know where people are coming from. I've got about 3 years of active instructing experience and I think that will help. That, coupled with a desire to be as knowledgeable as possible because it's a very good possibility that I'm going to pursue a career path in the instructing field (if the stars align).

Do you or anybody know how many hours aerobatic instructors can put in? I know that it takes a toll on you and you have to build up a tolerance. How often can an experienced instructor go up on lessons?
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I think it really depends on the person as far as tolerance goes. The Pitts really doesn't hold too much fuel... maybe for an hour or so of acro if you manage it well... so usually most instructors limit their lessons to 45min to an hour.

The frequency of instruction really depends on the credibility of the instructor.. it sounds a little weird but it seems like the guys who actively compete or have done a decent amount of competition... they usually have the highest client base - all word of mouth references. Some places won't hire you until you've been in a few competitions.... but getting back to your question. I can think of two acro instructors off the top of my head that just do acro and unusual attitude (not really tailwheel endorsements)... they are usually booked up a couple weeks out for at least 25+ hours per week.

In my humble opinion, teaching unusual attitudes would be a great place to start and probably a more practical service for people.

The big problem would probably be that you get to the point where pulling 6-7Gs multiple times in a row or doing a 10, 15 turn inverted spins doesn't bother you at all... but your student has a hard time processing any useful information because their bodies are still adapting to what it going on :insane:.

Good luck getting into it... it would be a cool job doing acro everyday - and getting paid for it!

You've probably already been there, but www.iac.org lists most all aerobatic schools and has a lot a great information.
 
Mattio said:
Thanks for the responses, guys. I actually live about an hour from Mike Goulian's school...
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I used to work there. Probably one of the better places you could go. They are very credible and all of their instructors are competitors and a few of them regularly win.

If you wanted to teach there as a walk in you would at a minimum need super d or extra experience as well as competition experience and prior experience teaching acro. They would take you up for an interview checkride and likely do the primary or sportsman sequence to see how you do. At that point you would likely start teaching unusual attitudes and then work into acro at the primary level.

An example, one guy there did his private there and then I did his tailwheel endorsement as well as acro course with him. He then proceeded to do his IR there and instructor ratings. After a certain amount of time around the aerobatics program and flying in the super d he started teaching likely unusual attitudes. I believe he is a full fledged acro instructor there now and teaching primary and probably sportsman. He competes as well.
 
USMC-SSGT said:
I used to work there. Probably one of the better places you could go. They are very credible and all of their instructors are competitors and a few of them regularly win.

If you wanted to teach there as a walk in you would at a minimum need super d or extra experience as well as competition experience and prior experience teaching acro. They would take you up for an interview checkride and likely do the primary or sportsman sequence to see how you do. At that point you would likely start teaching unusual attitudes and then work into acro at the primary level.

An example, one guy there did his private there and then I did his tailwheel endorsement as well as acro course with him. He then proceeded to do his IR there and instructor ratings. After a certain amount of time around the aerobatics program and flying in the super d he started teaching likely unusual attitudes. I believe he is a full fledged acro instructor there now and teaching primary and probably sportsman. He competes as well.
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Do you fly for Colgan? I suppose you do by the avatar and maybe I know you. I used to work for Colgan.
 
Teaching acro is a lot of fun but I agree, do some IAC events or at least take some pretty lengthy acro courses. There is so much to learn regarding aerobatics and the knowledge behind it.
 
Inverted said:
Teaching acro is a lot of fun but I agree, do some IAC events or at least take some pretty lengthy acro courses. There is so much to learn regarding aerobatics and the knowledge behind it.
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Exactly...it takes probably 10 lessons to be able to fly a primary routine and learn to fix all the mistakes you may possibly make. After that it takes another 100 hours to do them somewhat properly provided you learned them correctly in the first place and then practiced them correctly. A slow roll in something slow like a citabria or super decathlon takes a long time to get perfect, if there is such a thing.

Loops are not too bad but there is a lot more to them than meets the eye. "HAAAARD 4 G pull....watch out the front window...now look out the side window and follow the horizon to ensure you are not dipping a wing. Now FLOOOOOAAAAT over the top...now look out the roof to catch the back of the horizon and your line. Now PUUUUUUULLL 4 gs to tighten the bottom up annnnnnnnd SET on level attitude."

And...make it look like none of that happened.
 
If you are looking for some aerobatic instruction, come check us out in Chandler, Az at Chandler Air Service www.aerobatics.com. We use four Great Lakes Biplanes. We do have a Pitts s2c for Advanced training.

To be able to teach with us, you first had to be hired as a regular instructor with us. After several hundred hours of teaching CFI and II, you then get into doing Tailwheel instruction. After several hundred hours teaching Tailwheel, you can proceed to teaching aerobatics. This involves doing the full aerobatic course as a student, then building up a bit of experience and taking up some fun flights. After that (when they feel you are ready), the company puts you through the instructor training (teaching from the front seat). Usually this is about 5 hours. You then are checked out by the Chief Pilot on the teaching side of aerobatics/spins/unusual attitudes.

I have been teaching tailwheel for three years now and aerobatics for almost two. And I am the newest aerobatics instructor with over 3300 TT..

I am very fortunate to do what I do. And I love it. I literally fell into this company and was at the right place and at the right time. We take our training very seriously and pride ourselves in what we do. Teaching aerobatics puts to work all of your teaching experience and takes it to the next level. Nothing like a student starting a reverse Cuban, only to push and end up in an inverted flat spin... He didn't know what or where. I did, and calmly talked him into the recovery. Now that is fun. And not boring... :-)
 
personally i think if you're having to ask, then you're no where near ready to teach aerobatics.

Most compentent instructios I havce run into have at least been around the US competitive circut before teaching students.

jrh- I didn't know you flew with bruce. He's still around trucking in his little pitts.
 
moxiepilot said:
jrh- I didn't know you flew with bruce. He's still around trucking in his little pitts.
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Yep. In fact I bought my C-140 from a former student of his who wanted to get out of flying. Bruce introduced us and did my 10 hour insurance checkout in the 140 with me after I bought it.

He's a character. Good guy, but definitely a character.
 
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