Just to qualify, he's referencing military pilot training pipeline here on the road to getting wings. Still has different challenges than civil pilot training does.
Military pilots...
- Thread starter jrh
- Start date
Just to qualify, he's referencing military pilot training pipeline here on the road to getting wings. Still has different challenges than civil pilot training does.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
@ JRH, keep pushing him. If the guy isn't performing to your standards as a qualified civilian CFI, then he is wrong and needs to hit the books or try harder. I have about as much military time as I do civilian at this point, and I can certainly recognize that there are some differences in flying mentality. That being said, not every mil pilot is the same, just like not every civvie pilot is the same. For every military prop jock (lol'ing a little to myself here) with an arrogant attitude, there are 10 more guys who will come to the table with you ready to learn. Light civilian flying may be less complex in some ways than what we do, but it will kill you just the same, and takes a somewhat different skill set. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to start taking things a little bit more seriously.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the support, and I agree. I won't sign him off until I think he's competent to act as a commercial pilot.
But let me reiterate...my complaint isn't specifically against this guy's attitude (although that doesn't help the matter).
My complaint is against *the system*. He *already* holds a commercial pilot certificate based on his C-12 experience...yet I don't consider him competent to act as a commercial pilot in the civilian world. The "system" should not have issued him his commercial certificate just because he could fly a C-12/King Air. That's what I'm most upset about.
GlenA
Senior Chicken Counter
He sounds like an exception to the rule. I used to flight instruct out of SoCal and we were very close to some Marine and Naval bases. we used to have military pilots come out all the time to get checked out in our 172's. Most were great personalities and even though they had time in aircraft I will only ever dream of flying they all accepted my authority as the instructor and professional in THAT aircraft and were eager and quick to learn. There were a few that came out cocky and thought they would go out there and show us a thing or two, but that was quickly remedied, usually around landing time 
Most were great people to fly with, and I'm sure they could actually show us a thing or two (or three), we're always learning from each other.
Most were great people to fly with, and I'm sure they could actually show us a thing or two (or three), we're always learning from each other.
GlenA
Senior Chicken Counter
I can understand your frustration at this, but think about it this way. How many 777 drivers for example, could just hop into a 172 after flying heavy iron for years and still handle the aircraft safely right off the bat? And how many of us after leaving the instructing environment will be quick to remember all the rules for different parts of the FAR's that maybe don't apply to our current jobs? If he doesn't see the importance in learning these rules then yes he's at fault, but that doesn't mean he doesn't qualify to have a commercial license anymore, unless that standard is going to be held for every pilot out there....and it isn't except during BFR time
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
I agree.
I worked at an FBO next to an AFB (I was in the AF too). My experience with pilots who have no GA time is that they don't understand:
- Airspace
- VFR Flying
- VFR Requirements
- GA Performance
- Airport Operations (controlled or un-controlled)
- Basic FAR's are not understood.
- What's the AIM?
jrh
Well-Known Member
He sounds like an exception to the rule. I used to flight instruct out of SoCal and we were very close to some Marine and Naval bases. we used to have military pilots come out all the time to get checked out in our 172's. Most were great personalities and even though they had time in aircraft I will only ever dream of flying they all accepted my authority as the instructor and professional in THAT aircraft and were eager and quick to learn. There were a few that came out cocky and thought they would go out there and show us a thing or two, but that was quickly remedied, usually around landing time
No, the guy is a nice guy. On a personal level we get along fine.
And I think his attitude is being suitably adjusted the deeper into training with me that he gets.
But what if he'd never come to me and just started flying a Cessna 310 using his Commercial AMEL certificate? He wouldn't have a clue. He could be flying a plane without a valid airworthiness certificate, out of annual, performing common carriage without a 135 certificate, and be totally oblivious to the fact that he was doing anything wrong. THAT is the possibility that I'm ranting against.
jrh
Well-Known Member
And how many of us after leaving the instructing environment will be quick to remember all the rules for different parts of the FAR's that maybe don't apply to our current jobs? If he doesn't see the importance in learning these rules then yes he's at fault, but that doesn't mean he doesn't qualify to have a commercial license anymore, unless that standard is going to be held for every pilot out there....and it isn't except during BFR time
BUT HE NEVER KNEW THE RULES TO BEGIN WITH.
This is not a case of him learning and forgetting (which still isn't acceptable, but that's another discussion for another time). This is a case of him getting handed a certificate that he has no idea how to exercise the privileges of.
It's like me being issued a JAA pilot certificate just because I hold an FAA certificate. Sure, I can fly just fine, but that doesn't mean I have any idea what is required of me to operate as a commercial pilot in Europe. I would literally not know how much I don't know. I'd be completely ignorant of the privileges and responsibilities of the JAA certificate that I hold.
It's appears to be the same when coming from a strictly military background into a civilian environment.
Remember though, military guys aren't just handed civil certificates. They do have to take a military-competency test. Granted, that crash-course of a test is nothing compared to going through a full Commercial training pilot course AND the onus is on the pilot (military in this case) to learn just enough about Comm ops in order to know that he needs to research much more than just the mil-comp test if he wants to engage in Comm or even some of the basic civil operations.
So far as the flying part, the mil standards of performance for basic flying are just about equivilent to Commercial standards, hence the issuance of the certificate.
And civil pilots I find are generally weak on systems knowledge, weather, and emergency procedures. It all just depends.
So far as your list above:
Airspace: It depends on who you're talking to. Transport guys know it generally very well, as do helo pilots, then probably the tactical guys, in that order.
VFR flying: Many of the transport/fighter pilots aren't up as their civil brethern on this, since IFR is mostly what they do. However, I'll take any military helo guy up against any civil guy on this, as this is what helo guys do day in and day out.
VFR requirements: Same thing. Guys know where to look for the info, as its covered in the mil regs that mirror the FARs. They just don't do it day to day, other than helos.
GA Performance: Why would they know this? But by knowing performance for their own aircraft they fly, they should have the SA to know that they need to find how/where to do performance for a GA plane, were they to fly one.
Airport Operations (controlled or uncontrolled): I call BS on the controlled one. Mil pilots are the same as any other pilots on this one. Uncontrolled airport ops go in the same category as VFR ops.
Basic FARs not understood: BS again. The service's individual flying regs mirror 14 CFR 91. Knowing that, then they know most all of 91, and should know where to look if they don't.
AIM: Army is really big on the AIM for their aircrews, and the students in training get issued one and one is on file at baseops. Other services....at least the AF...not so much. Which is a shame since there's tons of good info in there.
Fuel management be an issue because they're by themselves? Again, more BS. EVERY pilot knows how to manage fuel in his own plane, military or civil. Has nothing to do with a controlled environment.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
You need to tell him that directly in no uncertain terms.
However his attitude seems to be by far the exception rather than the rule.
Most Military pilots I've met understand very well that their experiance flying F-18s doesn't mean they know much at all about flying on the civilian side of the fence. However there is nothing stopping them from picking up some books, flying with a civi CFI and fixing that problem very quickly.
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Paraphrasing from a brand spankin new C12 pilot that flew me on board the Truman in January...I asked him about his responsibility and having such little time and he said "As an infantryman knows his rifle, I know this aircraft and it's mission inside and out...Most civillian pilots with the same amount of time most likely know tons more about the big spectrum of aviation, but his job is this aircraft and its specific mission".
On a side note, i'd like to add that the C12 would be a great candidate for a yaw damper!
I have no problem with military guys...I have checked out brand new hornet pilots, to old salt test pilots, and they all handled the airplane very well...The one thing they all have in common is procedure, procedure, procedure. That's not a bad thing though.
Don't let one experience taint your view on these guys (and gals).
On a side note, i'd like to add that the C12 would be a great candidate for a yaw damper!
I have no problem with military guys...I have checked out brand new hornet pilots, to old salt test pilots, and they all handled the airplane very well...The one thing they all have in common is procedure, procedure, procedure. That's not a bad thing though.
Don't let one experience taint your view on these guys (and gals).
Again, don't broadbrush the opposite that somehow not getting one's PVT/Inst through civilian automatically means they don't know what it takes to operate civilian.
Just speaking from extensive background on both sides of the fence.
Again, are there things that civil pilots are stronger on, knowledge-wise than the average military pilot? Yes.
Are there things that miltary pilots are stronger on than the average GA pilot? Yes.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Fair enough.
Maybe I've overreacted a bit because this particular experience caught me off guard with how little the guy knew.
But honestly, if a pilot has a 100% military background, how would they know how to operate as a civilian? I certainly have no clue how to operate as a military pilot since I've never been one. Why would it work differently the other way around?
Because the basic flying regs military pilots operate under are based on 14 CFR 91. And the guys know that. From there, it's up to them to reference the FARs if they have any question. Thats taught in military pilot training and reinforced through the military-competency exam that they have to take to get a Comm-Inst.
By contrast, there's ZERO training you have on what military regs are what, and where to find them as a civilian; as the FARs you know aren't based on anything the military has regs on.
Thats why there's not a competency-exam test for civilian pilots to automatically become military winged aviators/pilots.
Mostly because we operate in the civilian environment every day and follow most civilian rules. The things you saw that differed (inspection requirements, etc) are minor and are easily taught by good CFIs like you.
I went through the military to civilian transition and learned a heck of a lot about what I didn't know about civilian aviation minutia... and there is indeed a lot of minutia we don't know unless trained. It's on us to get that training, whether it's from self-study, an add-on rating or a rental check out.
Here's an excerpt from my military to civilian helo transition guide to illustrate:
Ian J said:
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
I'll give you the helo pilots. Transport are a little bit better than the fast movers but they know little of the VFR part of the FAR's
GA Performance? You got a looser. Several times this happened when trying to check out in GA.
Mil Pilot: How come the plane shakes when I turn?
CFI (Ret Mil Pilot): The wing is stalling.
Mil Pilot: This isn't a very good airplane then.
CFI: It really wasn't made to do 70 degree turns in the traffic pattern.
Airport OPS: Issue a military pilot in a GA aircraft a Land and Hold Short clearance, you'll see. How about rolls in class D full of Air Carrier traffic? Another guy requested a follow me truck to find transit parking (had no idea what the green line was).
No knowledge of VFR vs IFR, my favorite. I was almost hit by 3 C-141's who were penetrating a solid layer on a VFR flight plan. I was in a PA-28 and I filed a near miss. Of the 3 Instructor Pilots, 3 PIC, 3 SIC only one could have passed a Private Pilot written. Their written statement said the following.
- That I was in a MOA and an MOA is Restricted Airspace. I was at least 15 miles outside the MOA and the position they gave confirmed that.
- They were indeed on on an IFR clearance. No, they were not talking to ATC exited the clouds 1,100 feet below the MVA. No approach, no MEA. They were on a 1200 code too.
It turned into a big deal on base. When the dust settled the Squadron Commander blamed the Tower for not telling them they didn't have an IFR clearance.
Fuel Management? One simply needed to look at the fuel receipts.