Military pilots...

jrh

Well-Known Member
...should *not* be issued civilian certificates/ratings based solely on military experience.

If they want to fly in the civilian world, they ought to take a civilian checkride for the privileges sought.

Maybe I'll tell a story later. It's time to go mow the lawn now.

Discuss.
 
I don't really agree.

Don't let a single bad experience flavor your perspective! :)
 
Just out of curiosity, what is your reasoning?

I'm training a pilot with *zero* civilian experience for his commercial single-engine add-on rating. He's only flown helicopters and the military equivalent of a King Air (a C-12 I think?) up to this point. Oh, and a handful of Cessna 182 hours from 12 years ago, right before he transitioned in to the King Air.

It's been an interesting experience.

He converted his military experience into Commercial AMEL and rotorcraft ratings through nothing but paperwork. I don't think military pilots should be allowed to do that.

I'll explain more later.
 
Gets me everytime, too... :)
 

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You're dangerous! Ice.... man!

Of course I'm just kidding to make a point. Most of the IP's I have seen are by the numbers and extremely professional. I would not judge them all by one dude. Military flying is quite a bit more complex and challenging than GA on the civillian side.
 
Of course I'm just kidding to make a point. Most of the IP's I have seen are by the numbers and extremely professional. I would not judge them all by one dude. Military flying is quite a bit more complex and challenging than GA on the civillian side.

How much GA on the civilian side have you participated in?
 
I'm training a pilot with *zero* civilian experience for his commercial single-engine add-on rating. He's only flown helicopters and the military equivalent of a King Air (a C-12 I think?) up to this point. Oh, and a handful of Cessna 182 hours from 12 years ago, right before he transitioned in to the King Air.

It's been an interesting experience. Sure, the guy has no experience with single engine, or little experience if he's the background I think he is and knowing that training pipeline.

He converted his military experience into Commercial AMEL and rotorcraft ratings through nothing but paperwork. I don't think military pilots should be allowed to do that.

I'll explain more later.

Am curious to hear the story.

But on the latter, what's different between daily CONUS flying of a UH-60 for the Army and say, a Eurocopter AS-355, in terms of basic regs etc? Nothing.

Whats different between flying a C-12 King Air for the services, and a BE-200 King Air for civilian, generally speaking day to day? Nothing.

Hence the conversions being paperwork. I caution you not to broadbrush.
 
...should *not* be issued civilian certificates/ratings based solely on military experience.

If they want to fly in the civilian world, they ought to take a civilian checkride for the privileges sought.

Maybe I'll tell a story later. It's time to go mow the lawn now.

Discuss.

I'm training a pilot with *zero* civilian experience for his commercial single-engine add-on rating. He's only flown helicopters and the military equivalent of a King Air (a C-12 I think?) up to this point. Oh, and a handful of Cessna 182 hours from 12 years ago, right before he transitioned in to the King Air.

It's been an interesting experience.

He converted his military experience into Commercial AMEL and rotorcraft ratings through nothing but paperwork. I don't think military pilots should be allowed to do that.

I'll explain more later.

Is this your first experience with a military-only pilot?

I sympathize with your plight. I've had three terrible experiences with military only pilots moving into single engine aircraft. Some instruction and time in the aircraft helped. However, I totally agree with you, military-only experience does not translate well to strictly GA flying (in my experience).

In fairness, I've had one good experience with an Army Apache pilot.
 
How much GA on the civilian side have you participated in?

It depends on what's being referred to. Generally speaking, most military tactical flying involves accepted risk beyond whats normal or accepted to civil flying. Of course there's VERY challenging and/or dangerous civil flying out there, but generally speaking from a risk-acceptance perspective, military has more that civilians can usually choose not to do.

Thats just the general idea between the two, without comparing every single civil job, and every single military job one for one. Both types of flying require highly trained, skilled, and experienced pilots.
 
Am curious to hear the story.

But on the latter, what's different between daily CONUS flying of a UH-60 for the Army and say, a Eurocopter AS-355, in terms of basic regs etc? Nothing.

Whats different between flying a C-12 King Air for the services, and a BE-200 King Air for civilian, generally speaking day to day? Nothing.

Hence the conversions being paperwork.

I agree with the above. However, I have been frighteningly disappointed with military pilots who have been given a Single Engine commercial based on their prior experience in an F-16 or T-6/T-34 who then expect to fly a C-210, C-208, or even a C-172 with ease. If that person has little or no small GA or piston flying under their belt, the results are amazing. And heaven forbid you take the military-only flyer who flew a C-12 and even a civilian BE-200 and cut them loose in a piston twin cessna. :eek:
 
I agree with the above. However, I have been frighteningly disappointed with military pilots who have been given a Single Engine commercial based on their prior experience in an F-16 or T-6/T-34 who then expect to fly a C-210, C-208, or even a C-172 with ease. If that person has little or no small GA or piston flying under their belt, the results are amazing. And heaven forbid you take the military-only flyer who flew a C-12 and even a civilian BE-200 and cut them loose in a piston twin cessna. :eek:

On the single engine thing, for guys that only flew turboprop T-6/T-34, then get a Comm-SEL conversion, they should be smart enough to know that they might need some training in flying a normal recip aircraft, 182/210, etc, before just taking one flying. I'd like to think so.

Of course, the same can be said for someone who does all their training in a G1000, gets their Private-SEL, then thinks they can just jump into a steam plane, or vice versa (I know this body has been hacked to death on the board here). I'd hope they'd know that they'd need some conversion time too.

Let me also qualify that with my background.....starting civilian all the way up to 135 single pilot freight dog, then to military; I'm not necessarily biased either way on this issue.
 
Whats different between flying a C-12 King Air for the services, and a BE-200 King Air for civilian, generally speaking day to day?

Easy, the C-12 pilots sit on the ramp for 15 minutes with the engines running while the BE-200 crew taxis out. ;)
 
How much GA on the civilian side have you participated in?

About 250 hrs. I don't mean to say this to slight GA flying at all or say that military pilots are better than GA pilots. It's simply a different mentality. When you fly a sortie you are going out to prove something to very high standards under alot of pressure. If you have a bad day, you are always two-three flights away from being eliminated. The standards and expectations are quite high and you are always being evaluated. However, it ultimatly depends on the pilot.
I am new to military so maybe some of the older guys can chip in and say how right I am or if I am somewhat off base.
 
Ok, here's the story...

Said military pilot (recently retired military pilot, actually) was offered a job flying a PC-12. So he came to me wanting to get a commercial ASEL add-on rating.

First, I'll say this: I have no doubt this guy was qualified to fly Hueys and C-12s. He's intelligent, methodical, follows the checklist, has professional radio comm skills, etc. I'm not doubting his skills as a military aviator in any way.

The problem I have with him comes from a few areas. The first that I noticed came from his overall lack of understanding for how things are done in the civilian world. Very little to no knowledge of civilian maintenance requirements, currency requirements, paperwork requirements, etc.

In day to day flying, MikeD is right...the rules aren't very different. He knows how far away from clouds to be when operating VFR and he knows when he needs to talk to a control tower. But if he ever gets ramp checked, he would have been screwed. Had no idea what a 100 hour inspection is, airworthiness directives, time logging requirements to prove currency, the AROW documents required to be on board an aircraft, etc. I don't think it's too much to ask of a commercial pilot to know these things.

Hell, he didn't even know what he was allowed to do as a commercial pilot! Nobody had ever talked to him about the difference between Part 91 and 135 operations, holding out, common carriage, etc. He essentially stepped out of the military with a certificate he had no clue how to properly use.

Does this make him a bad pilot? Of course not. But he shouldn't be given privileges that he doesn't understand, either. That's why I don't think it's too much to ask to do a civilian checkride with a complete civilian oral exam and flight check over civilian operating procedures. It's a different world, plain and simple.

Ok, so that's the "academic" side of this guy. Nothing life-threatening, even if I don't like it.

When it came to the flying, he's done fine in all areas except one fairly important one...landing. I'd place him on the same level as a 10-12 hour student pilot when it comes to landings. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say that, either. I'm just stating my honest evaluation of his skills. He doesn't have adequate skills to land a Cessna in even a mild crosswind. Bad pilot? Nope. With some practice he'll be fine. But I don't think he should be licensed to fly something that he so obviously is nowhere close to commercial pilot standards, either. If I hadn't assisted with several landings he would have crashed, simple as that. I don't think that's acceptable performance for a commercial pilot.

The final part that irks me is his attitude. I'd always heard jokes about the stereotypical cocky military pilots, but never actually trained one...until now.

I'm not sure if it's even cockiness as much as it's an obliviousness to what he's trying to accomplish. He seems to be approaching this whole training/checking process as some trivial little formality before hopping in the left seat of a PC-12. He's not approaching it as learning a new type of flying.

After our second flight (the one during which I needed to assist with half of the landings) he told me he'd like to shoot for taking a checkride the next week. I told him I wasn't sure of that, but I'd do everything I could to help him get it done as quickly as possible.

The next day we talked over the phone about a few things. He seemed a little irritated that I hadn't even mentioned short/soft field takeoffs and landings yet. I said, "Yeah, I just wanted to make sure you were super solid with normal landings before getting in to performance landings." He seemed to get the point.

Today we met to go over what would be expected of him during the oral exam. He basically said, "I don't get it...it's a 172. What kind of limitations are there really?" as though he might as well be flying a powered parachute. When I started showing him the POH limitations section and everything the examiner would be expecting him to know, he almost didn't believe me. He said, "Really?? Even though I'm probably never going to fly this plane again after the checkride?"

I said, "Right.........it's a checkride." I think it finally started to dawn on him what he needs to do.

So when it comes down to it, the guy is a good guy. I'm confident that he'll make a solid PC-12 pilot. But I also think he was grossly under-prepared to operate as a commercial pilot in the civilian world, and I don't think it's unreasonable for military pilots to be re-checked as civilian pilots before entering civilian jobs. My beef isn't with this individual pilot, it's with the entire system that allowed him to get to where he is, the way he is.
 
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