Flap retraction on the runway

dhc2tacksby said:
ESA, we need to go back to Jet University like these guys and learn how to fly all over again. Clearly we are dangerous.
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So far, in this whole thread, you have consistently been the one with a "Holier than thou" attitude, so, expectedly, you have been catching flak. No one is calling you an idiot, or saying that your doing it wrong, or whatever. But thats what you have been doing. Just go to the thread about "landing." You know which one I am talking about. The one where you called it "commercial aviation," and it's standard practice to retract flaps on the runway while flying "commercial," which you called 121/135 I believe. It may be that way at your company, but everywhere I have worked (which wasn't Jet U, but one of them the most respected EMT/Tail wheel schools in the nation/world), and currently work, has been to not touch anything unless absolutely necessary while on the runway. The bottom line is, if you had to retract the flaps on the runway, three things have more than likely happened.

#1) You had to do an off field landing, and were running out of room. T/O distance is usually more than landing distance, so just leave them down until you clear the runway. Your in a high workload environment at that point, just focus on maintaining control.

#2) You are demonstrating the technique to an examiner, so you MUST use the proper procedure for a short field landing.

#3) Some outside factor, be it winds, you landed long, whatever, have caused you to want to reduce the amount of lift the wing is making to keep the airplane planted. So at that point, depending on the situation, it is necessary.

To sum it all up, it's a matter of technique, and then, it's situation dependent. You may feel it necessary to get off the runway in a timely fashion, to not screw someone, and there is nothing wrong with that. I treat the runway as mine while I am on it, and if the controller can't keep us spaced far enough apart, thats not my problem. Am I going to try and get off for the next guy, you betcha. But am I going to do it at the potential cost of screwing up and compromising safety, and possibly loosing my job, negative. If thats not up to your standards, I'm sorry. But I am more concerned about #1 (me) than anything else, because if I take care of #1, then those in the back will arrive at their destination safely too.
 
Here's an example today. I landed in SGY with gusts into the 30s and I was lightly loaded, so as soon as I had the mains down, I picked up the flaps so that I wouldn't get thrown back into the air when I was too slow to fly.

As for DHC2Tacksby's comments, the truth is that he's not that far off the mark in his assessment. Jet jocks, 121 guys, and CFIs are vitriolically shouting that its dangerous, and then the guys who are actually using this technique are saying how practical it is and how much safer it is to the alternative (getting picked up and thrown off the runway).
 
ppragman said:
Here's an example today. I landed in SGY with gusts into the 30s and I was lightly loaded, so as soon as I had the mains down, I picked up the flaps so that I wouldn't get thrown back into the air when I was too slow to fly.

As for DHC2Tacksby's comments, the truth is that he's not that far off the mark in his assessment. Jet jocks, 121 guys, and CFIs are vitriolically shouting that its dangerous, and then the guys who are actually using this technique are saying how practical it is and how much safer it is to the alternative (getting picked up and thrown off the runway).
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You use the honey approach, and you catch bee's. Viniger, not so much.
 
ppragman said:
Here's an example today. I landed in SGY with gusts into the 30s and I was lightly loaded, so as soon as I had the mains down, I picked up the flaps so that I wouldn't get thrown back into the air when I was too slow to fly.

As for DHC2Tacksby's comments, the truth is that he's not that far off the mark in his assessment. Jet jocks, 121 guys, and CFIs are vitriolically shouting that its dangerous, and then the guys who are actually using this technique are saying how practical it is and how much safer it is to the alternative (getting picked up and thrown off the runway).
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Do what you want, I wouldn't teach the technique to students though, which is what I think the op was about. Or at least low time pilots in small ac. Frankly, I wouldn't do it myself and I have an ATP CFII MEI. I've done lots of dumb things when I was fatigued in an airplane. The only thing that kept me alive and unviolated was routine.
 
ppragman said:
Here's an example today. I landed in SGY with gusts into the 30s and I was lightly loaded, so as soon as I had the mains down, I picked up the flaps so that I wouldn't get thrown back into the air when I was too slow to fly.

As for DHC2Tacksby's comments, the truth is that he's not that far off the mark in his assessment. Jet jocks, 121 guys, and CFIs are vitriolically shouting that its dangerous, and then the guys who are actually using this technique are saying how practical it is and how much safer it is to the alternative (getting picked up and thrown off the runway).
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You probably flew a rolling base to final instead of a standard traffic pattern, you're dangerous!
 
ppragman said:
As for DHC2Tacksby's comments, the truth is that he's not that far off the mark in his assessment.
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I think most people dont like how he puts down people who dont use his technique.

Different environments use different techniques. Obviously they all seem to work for what they are doing. I still dont see what is wrong with just going with the SOPs.

But then again I dont judge people for how they do things unless my life is in danger.
 
I'm not the nicest person in any given room.
I don't offer hugs to those who may need it.

If I offend you by my vernacular, grow a pair and get over it.
 
I don't get this thread...

Some ops, apparently, demand you put the flaps up. If that's the case do it. If you ding the machine, and someone in a cheap suit and short tie asks you why, point to it in a book that is approved by the administrator.

If I'm left to MY own devices, I wouldn't touch anything, but that's my own knowledge of my ability to do something dumb. Also, I'd look to see if it was distracting me from my tasks.

The only other thought I'd have, if it was MY airplane, I probably wouldn't fly it into conditions where the actual landing configuration of the airplane could cause me to lose control.

Then the whole thing dissolves into this whole divisive you don't fly like I do, so I'll throw out some 'your dangerous' or 'you've never done this' remarks, in spite of the fact some of the posters may have, or have not actually been in your shoes.

I just don't get it. If YOUR company says put the flaps up and land it's OK to land in 30 kt cross winds with gusts say your company wants that procedure done. It's not that big of a deal, and not worth ripping guys in maybe a training environment, or someone who flies his plane on the weekend, or flies into normal strips.
 
Wow!! I can't belive this thread has gone this far. Thanks for all the responses. I have taken quite alot from what you have all shared and think i have a better prospective on how to go about my rollout now.

Again, thank you all for your advice/comments.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
I'm not the nicest person in any given room.
I don't offer hugs to those who may need it.

If I offend you by my vernacular, grow a pair and get over it.
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Being able to get your point across without offending people is a sign of intelligence, not •-ness.
 
greaper007 said:
Being able to get your point across without offending people is a sign of intelligence, not •-ness.
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+1 And, it'll probably get you farther in life. More friends = more opportunity. No one is asking him to get a brown nose. Just tone down the tude a little. Ya' know.


Edit: But, I guess since we I didn't go into the military, I am a lower form of human. Woa is me. :rolleyes:
 
It's my alleged "holier than thou" attitude that you accuse me of on this forum that got me my current job. It's also my holier than thou attitude that got me my last two jobs without so much as a resume, so again thanks for the advice.

I disagree with many of the armchair quarterbacks on this site. I don't sugar coat it.

It's not your lack of service to your country that makes you a lower form of human. There are many paramedics, police officers, firemen, correctional workers etc... that never served.
 
mshunter said:
+1 And, it'll probably get you farther in life. More friends = more opportunity. No one is asking him to get a brown nose. Just tone down the tude a little. Ya' know.



Edit: But, I guess since we I didn't go into the military, I am a lower form of human. Woa is me. :rolleyes:
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This would have been a much more effective response, were it not for the dig at the end. I was reading along thinking...excellent! Until the end when I went oh well.

It actually isn't that big of a deal except that you may have made a good point about rising above the fury and making a solid point above the pettiness, right up until the end. I understand and have probably deleted more words than I posted... but you have to determine if your goal is to communicate and possibly educate, or is it to lash out and make yourself feel better for a few minutes. I can speak from experience when I say that it is much more satisfying over the long haul to not get mired in personal sniping.
 
At UPT, the absolute first thing in the after landing checklist is changing the ejection seat sequencing setting, and then installing the seat pins. If you start tinkering around with flap retraction, transponder, etc with a hot seat, the IP is likely to wanker slap you.

That said, I have heard IPs mention retracting the flaps on landing roll in wet runway conditions.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
It's my alleged "holier than thou" attitude that you accuse me of on this forum that got me my current job. It's also my holier than thou attitude that got me my last two jobs without so much as a resume, so again thanks for the advice.

I disagree with many of the armchair quarterbacks on this site. I don't sugar coat it.

It's not your lack of service to your country that makes you a lower form of human. There are many paramedics, police officers, firemen, correctional workers etc... that never served.
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I think you make a reasonable point once in a while, if it weren't for the oblvious disdain you display for the people here at Jetcareers... I served in the military, was a city firefighter and am back in the firefighting businss, and most of the people I respect show humility and are, for the most part soft spoken and humble. I know it is difficult sometimes to make a point in a written forum, but it is with the extra effort. I hope that you will eventually realize that there are many experts here.

You seem to have the tough love approach to your way of mentoring...the only part missing is the love ;)
 
Man, I'm playing a game of 'catch up' with the thread after being on the road, and I'm not sure if it's a combination of ancient Roman politics mixed with APC with 'other'. Woo! So much testosterone flowing around, I'm afraid that someone's going to accuse JC of "juicing"! ;)
 
jtrain609 said:
I know, I pretty much went from my mothers womb to an RJ.

I didn't spend my other 10 years of flying doing other things.
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Well, not exactly. I am sure once you got weened off your mother's milk you then got hired at Gulfstream to do the FO program for a while. That would be an awesome visual though, someone gets on a Gulfstream Beech 1900 and they see a 1yr old kid strapped in a car chair sitting in the FO seat. I imagine all sorts of poles would be attached to the infant to reach the flight controls... oh and the kid would have aviator sunglasses and some bose headsets.
 
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