PC-12 Shutdown in Flight

[KLB]

There isn't much, the airplane does all the necessary load shedding on its own, so its really pitch for 84 knots, and starting panicking.

Well this is probably why the procedure is different. Maybe Pilatus figures that at best glide, there would not be enough airflow over the compressor to do an airstart which may lead to a hot start. In that case it may be better to use a battery start.

It looks like a pick your poison situation. Do you pitch for best glide and attempt a battery start or do you pitch for an airspeed that would give you sufficient airflow over the compressor for an airstart?

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

I'd be interested to see what the engine failed/ fatal accident ratio is for both... King airs fly a lot more each year, simply because there are 1000's out there.

I'm supprised that you don't have something like pumps/ ignitors on with power interruption, as that's really all there is to do with an air restart. Esp. If the plane loadsheds automatically

No one has ever died due to a PC-12 engine problem. The only PC-12 fatalities have been linked to pilot error. But truth be told, there are times when I really hope the engine doesn't fail, cause there is no way the outcome would be good.

I think it really all depends on where you are, how high you are, etc. If you're solid IFR, and you know you'll have to do an approach, you'd want to be really careful about conserving battery power. If its good VFR, and you're over some really inhospitable terrain, it might be worthwhile killing the batteries trying to get the engine started.

 

[ackeight]

There isn't much, the airplane does all the necessary load shedding on its own, so its really pitch for 84 knots, and starting panicking. There is also an MOR, which is a manual override for the fuel control unit. If the FCU fails, you can use the MOR to manually introduce fuel to the engine.

About the "buy a king air" quip, more people have been killed after King Air engine failures than PC-12 engine failures.

Who told you pitch for 84???????you would STALL!!!!!!!!!! If you are talking about flaps 15 that's a different story, but still too slow/draggy.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Who told you pitch for 84???????you would STALL!!!!!!!!!! If you are talking about flaps 15 that's a different story, but still too slow/draggy.

Sorry, I should have said pitch for on speed.

 

[SoonerAv8r]

An engine failure on the PC-12 is about the last of my worries. At FL270 you only have about 48,312 sq miles or a radius of about 70nm. Find an ILS and intercept the IAF @ GS + 2000'. Engine failure after takeoff??? Turn around and land on the runway you just took off from!

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Turn around and land on the runway you just took off from!

I was going to ask about that. I seem to recall one of my instructors saying (he had just gone to Simcom for the PC12) saying that they were teaching a turnaround at 500 AGL. Does that number sound right?

 

[ackeight]

I was going to ask about that. I seem to recall one of my instructors saying (he had just gone to Simcom for the PC12) saying that they were teaching a turnaround at 500 AGL. Does that number sound right?

Simcom just re calibrated their simulator(feb) I did it at 500' on my initial awhile ago, but now you don't even make it half way at that height. They say it more accuratly represents the aircraft and thought 500' was too dangerous and you should just land straight ahead wings level. Personally I'd try it at 700'

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

I was going to ask about that. I seem to recall one of my instructors saying (he had just gone to Simcom for the PC12) saying that they were teaching a turnaround at 500 AGL. Does that number sound right?

At my company, we brief 1000 AGL for our turnaround point. 800 is doable, I would say 500 is not. We also keep flaps 15 until 1000 agl, vs 400 agl like SIMCOM trains.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

An engine failure on the PC-12 is about the last of my worries. At FL270 you only have about 48,312 sq miles or a radius of about 70nm. Find an ILS and intercept the IAF @ GS + 2000'. Engine failure after takeoff??? Turn around and land on the runway you just took off from!

What about a failure at glideslope intercept? How about just as you turn inbound on the procedure turn? How about when you are 30 miles west of TEB at 2000'? Just playing devil's advocate. There are times when you won't make it to an airport after an engine failure. But considering the reliability of the -67B/P, I'm not going to lay awake tonight worrying about it.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Simcom just re calibrated their simulator(feb) I did it at 500' on my initial awhile ago, but now you don't even make it half way at that height. They say it more accuratly represents the aircraft and thought 500' was too dangerous and you should just land straight ahead wings level. Personally I'd try it at 700'

Yeah, I was thinking 500 sounded really low, no matter what the plane was.

 

[TurdBird]

PC-12 is on the top 10 most gangsta aircraft list.

 

[Stonefly]

Yeah, I'll do that occasionally when what some one posts doesn't coincide with personal experience and knowledge. Don't get all huffy, it happens. And just because I think you're wrong doesn't make it so.

Yeah, that's how it works. .

We can agree on the bolded text above.

Perhaps it was your writing style I didn't pick up on, but you were saying things weren't possible to do that I as well as others have done. See below...
This was my point. Just because you hasn't thought of something doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. .

If this is what you are referring to (in part):

Oh, and there is no way for a windmilling start, the PT-6 is a free turbine, so the prop does not turn the engine.

I understood (perhaps wrongly) the person that the post refers to asking if the windmilling prop could assist in starting the engine. Therefore, my post is correct in that regard.

As far as ram air getting the Ng greater than 13% to do a non-starter assisted airstart, I did not know that was possible (& I believe admitted as much), and am still not convinced that it is possible in the Pilatus PC-12. Just because something is possible in one airplane with a similar application, does not guarantee success in another airplane. There are many different models of PT-6, installed in many different nacelles.

You made the comment in your original post referring to my "900 hours behind a PT-6". I said that I had 900 hours in the PC-12, so yes I have 900 hours behind the PT-6A-67B (none behind the -67P yet as I haven't flown the actual airplane yet since coming back from Simcom), but I have not flown any other PT-6 equipped airplane. I recall my Simcom instructor, who also teaches the KA 300/350, saying the air intakes, and the way the seperators work, are very different. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with the restriction in the PIM of the PC-12 for doing an airstart with the starter only. I did put a call into him yesterday to get his opinion, but haven't heard back from him yet.

Not what I was trying to say here. Your answers seemed too textbook without showing any real world application knowledge. Again it's just the way I read your posts..

How much real world application do you have in the Pilatus PC-12 before you judge me?

If you really want to take this conversation further, PM me so we can take our conversation out of the thread topic.

PM's won't be necessary. You "call me out" in public, you can back it up in public.

 

[Stonefly]

Having flown with a shut down pt6 in the 1900, I'll say that an air restart wouldn't exactly be difficult. At 150 kts, we held close to 8%nh, will start it.

Curious, but in the pc12, what are your memory items for engine out?

Pitch for on speed

PCL to idle

Condition lever cut off/feather

Proceed to landing site

Refer to checklist

That is for total power loss in flight at cruise. There are other situations (such as partial power loss) that have different actions, such as using the Manual Over Ride (MOR) that Jimmy_Norton referred too.

 

[Stonefly]

This isn't true, the igniters don't use much current. You could have not enough bat power to get N1 up but enough to run the igniters. Wouldn't you? Well, maybe not. I guess it depends... on some aircraft you get below a certain amount of volts and everything dies.

I'm confused. Are you arguing with me, or yourself?

 

[Stonefly]

Mr. Pilatus does say one batt assisted airstart; Mr. Pilatus does not list a non-bat airstart EP(I would try it if i was IMC). Just remember to flip the ignitors and pumps on since you are not using the starter and it will not trigger the auto igniters and pumps(duh, but in an emergency someone might forget). It's pointless to try 2 battery restarts. If I was in cruise and it died and I had VFR below me I wouldn't restart till I was vfr depending on ceilings. There are a lot of situations and a few right ways to do it, but there are a lot of wrong ways to do it. If it keeps you alive you did it right:beer:

On a side note, and the old Airnet guys can confirm or deny this, but I believe(70% sure) we did a non-bat airstart on the caravans???????

Just want to make the point that the starter has nothing to do with "triggering" the igniters. The igniters, when in "Auto" mode, are triggered solely by two things:

ITT below 500 C
and
Ng is 10% or more

 

[minitour]

There is no checklist for the PC-12 for doing an airstart without the starter.

I wasn't referring to a PC-12. You said "PT-6". That's what I was responding to. Lots of hours behind PT-6s in the one and two engine varieties.. No PC-12 time though.

-mini

 

[ackeight]

Just want to make the point that the starter has nothing to do with "triggering" the igniters. The igniters, when in "Auto" mode, are triggered solely by two things:

ITT below 500 C
and
Ng is 10% or more

That is true, but you will have an NG lower than 10% while gliding, so no igniters will be on until you turn them on. That is all dependant on airspeed of course, if you want to do 200kts to have auto ignite you can.

Just looked at the EP's and even with a battery start they recommend you turn the ignitors ON from AUTO. not sure why, but they do.

 

[Stonefly]

That is true, but you will have an NG lower than 10% while gliding, so no igniters will be on until you turn them on. That is all dependant on airspeed of course, if you want to do 200kts to have auto ignite you can.

Just looked at the EP's and even with a battery start they recommend you turn the ignitors ON from AUTO. not sure why, but they do.

You're right about the EP, & I am surprised that "fuel pumps on" is not part of the procedure. I am sure that it is assumed that the fuel pumps are in auto, but I'm scratching my head over why the EP wouldn't say to turn them on.

But back to your original idea of doing a non-starter assisted airstart, when you say above that you would have to do "200kts to have auto ignite", at what Ng are you proposing to do an unassisted airstart? 200 kts to reach 10% Ng? How much more to reach 13% Ng to introduce fuel?

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

You're right about the EP, & I am surprised that "fuel pumps on" is not part of the procedure. I am sure that it is assumed that the fuel pumps are in auto, but I'm scratching my head over why the EP wouldn't say to turn them on.

But back to your original idea of doing a non-starter assisted airstart, when you say above that you would have to do "200kts to have auto ignite", at what Ng are you proposing to do an unassisted airstart? 200 kts to reach 10% Ng? How much more to reach 13% Ng to introduce fuel?

If it was me, I'd be introducing fuel at 10% if it looked like thats all I was gonna be getting.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

The Pt-6 will start below 10% ng...

I know different applications have different procedures, but underneath it all, they are the same... and I've seen one started at 8% accidentally. Warm, yes, but it started ok.