Flap retraction on the runway
- Thread starter bksslc
- Start date
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Johnson bars are mechanical.
Bumblebee
Commodore
obviously...Well, i obviously have a superior mind because i never used any of those words.
( funny)I haven't had a procedural reason to raise the flaps, but I did raise the flaps as I realized we had a left brake failure on a short runway in a 401 once...I think it helped...
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Ahhh man, I can't believe I missed your arrival John!
Look, the world is not black and white. You can't just say, "DON'T EVER DO X" because someone will come up with a scenario where you can and should do X.
As for raising the flaps, some times its the only way to maintain directional control during the roll out on a really muddy day when a tire digs in more than another, or the airplane's still trying to fly because of 40kt gusts is to suck the flaps up. Its not wrong, its just different from what you did.
Bear in mind that your about 1500hrs of experience was essentially limited to instructing (in one form or another a la Amflight) and FO-ing. Which means that in many circumstances your experience doesn't explore non-PTS, or non-standard situations that might arise from boundary conditions which cannot be found in the realm of Skymates, Amflight, or ExpressJet. This is not a bad thing, its just different. Its not that you weren't experienced in what you were doing, but rather your experience doesn't prepare you for all possible types of flying (just as mine doesn't prepare me for flying down south).
Here's an example of when the float plane would need as much room as possible to get in, but potentially less to get out. Envision a lake on the most awesome day ever the wind is calm, and the water, unfortunately is glassy. Depending on the dimensions and local topography of your lake, it may be possible for you to have to come in over some fairly steep terrain, that you wouldn't have to worry about on the departure but provides the best possible "last reference point" for a glassy water landing. That 150' might be the difference between going around and successfully landing when you're descending to the lake essentially on instruments.
Or perhaps on a river that is filled up with boat traffic limiting your landing distance that will be gone by the time you leave.
For the wheel plane pilot, the adventure of flying in exceedingly windy conditions can sometimes required a different technique. With 40kt gusts it is very easy for even a fairly heavy light airplane to be picked up and thrown around. If you get into these gusts close to the ground, where it counts, and the mechanical turbulence doesn't really help you you may be in a position where you could end up flying again with too little control to shove the nose down. In the winter up here these are conditions that exist, and can require different techniques as a solution.
Ever landed on fresh snow in a light piston single? The deceleration is such that you don't need to use brakes. When trying to take off again, it can be more complicated some times you have to do things like lift a tire out of the snow so that you accelerate then dump full flaps to suck the other one out once you get to flying speed. This is a fairly abnormal experience, but it happens.
Finally, as for your jab at Esa, what was the shortest strip you ever went into, and how heavy were you? I suspect that an 1800' strip on a 110 degree day in texas could be an exciting experience, especially if one were at max gross.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Mechanical, the beaver has a hydraulic flaps actuated by a pump that looks like the johnsonbar.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Thank you for that explanation. If i were to try and explain exactly how things wprked, like jerking the flpas and the yolk at the same time to get air born, i would get run out of the forum. The fact is, its a SOP over here. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
I still think it laughable that anyone on here thinks that retracting flaps in a 172 with the electric flaps that take 10 seconds to come up does ANYTHING to reduce your ground roll.
Carry on with the flamewar.
Carry on with the flamewar.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
I can guarantee it does.
ferguson354
Well-Known Member
This can be one of the most frustrating items for flying. From my experience I've come to believe there simply is no straight answer for this that applies to every pilot/plane/operation. Simply put: FLY THE PLANE YOU FLY. If you fly a C172, you obviously won't take into account typical SOP for most 135 ops. If you're in a Bonanza you might not want to change config on the runway since those gear and flap handles can get confused easily enough. What if you have a pilot not-flying that can safely change config for you? Sure, why not. Oh....you're in a plane with electric gear and manual flaps? Ok...maybe it's safe to bring those flaps in then. Or maybe you should maintain that runway centerline. For those of you thinking "train how you will fly, mr. career pilot" - some people choose to fly purely for pleasure....they don't need to train in there C172 for complex multi flight fundamentals.
There are a lot of ways to come at this, each presenting a different yet correct answer. Obviously certain things should be done with regard to safety....but we can debate all day to this end. Refer to your AFM, SOP (if you have one) or CFI. At the end of the day, a thorough operational knowledge of YOUR A/C will go further than any theory when you're trying to get into that short strip safely!
There are a lot of ways to come at this, each presenting a different yet correct answer. Obviously certain things should be done with regard to safety....but we can debate all day to this end. Refer to your AFM, SOP (if you have one) or CFI. At the end of the day, a thorough operational knowledge of YOUR A/C will go further than any theory when you're trying to get into that short strip safely!
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I almost got run out of the forum for saying I've landed a 402 on a 2500' runway. Who knows with these guys sometimes. :dunno:
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
If it is in the POH then scan it and post on here.
I would bet that if you bent an airplane regardless of the reason and the fed knew you retracted the flaps during the landing roll you would see careless and reckless in the report.
Remeber performance charts are based on new aircraft, new brakes, new tires, and test pilot at the controls.
I have landed twin T-props on the snow covered runways at uncontrolled fields and it was a handfull getting them stopped and we didn't restract the flaps. Not to mention when landing on contantimated surfaces retracting the flaps can damage them.
I would bet that if you bent an airplane regardless of the reason and the fed knew you retracted the flaps during the landing roll you would see careless and reckless in the report.
Remeber performance charts are based on new aircraft, new brakes, new tires, and test pilot at the controls.
I have landed twin T-props on the snow covered runways at uncontrolled fields and it was a handfull getting them stopped and we didn't restract the flaps. Not to mention when landing on contantimated surfaces retracting the flaps can damage them.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Cessna 172SP POH, online, Page 4-46, Short Field Landing subheading.
http://www.flights-inc.com/manuals/172SIMAUS-03.pdf
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Does the POH tell you when and where to manipulate the other flight controls? Is there a section in the POH about how you should turn the yoke to the left if you want to start a bank to the left? If not you're in SERIOUS trouble if you make that left turn.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
A big "yeah that" to that.
My favorite feeling in the world until I discovered the joy of pulling a float out of the water was the feeling of acceleration when you pulled the tires out of lose snow in a 207 by adding flaps and using a little aileron. A swift jerk in some airplanes can pull the mains out of the snow or mud and get you flying a little too slow to climb but high enough to begin accelerating. It's just different than hitting vr and rotating.
Most days I pull the nose wheel off the ground about an inch or so as soon as I have the downwash to do it, then accelerate until I can add a little flap and get airborne. That's SOP up here as far as I'm concerned. On gravel sometimes pulling the nosewheel up out of the mud an inch or so gives you the necessary acceleration to climb out. Down here in southeast we've got the advantage of having good paved runways for pretty much every place except Excursion Inlet, in the rest of the state, that's pretty abnormal. Take a look at this stuff:
[YT]hwje6_LDiJZg[/YT]
[YT]kI488_QAMSc[/YT]
This dude really knows the planning attitude.
[YT]42TA5ZWMQZU[/YT]
jspeed87
Well-Known Member
That's not the way to think man. Remember not every pilot is Iceman or maverick. We have weekend flyers too. It's always a good idea to follow procedures. No matter how cheesy or lame they may be.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Chief pilots who have thousands of hours and amazingly talented pilots have pulled the gear instead of the flaps...it happens. Human's fly airplanes, humans are not infallible.
If you think it can't happen to you, then it is more likely that it WILL happen to you.
As far as the argument about the SOP for you crazy people in AK, there is nothing standard about flying in Alaska, so you just stay out of it!
In the lower 48 and most other places in the world where we are NOT crazy*...virtually every singly 121 or 135 operator has a policy against touching anything on the rollout...that is a fact.
At AUC, we will only touch stuff on the overhead (start APU/open bleed air) unless we are doing touch and goes (during spring training), and our flaps are on the console behind the trim wheel, while the gear handle is on the lower part of the instrument panel.
*(If you think I think you are really crazy, you need to become less sensitive):laff:
If you think it can't happen to you, then it is more likely that it WILL happen to you.
As far as the argument about the SOP for you crazy people in AK, there is nothing standard about flying in Alaska, so you just stay out of it!
In the lower 48 and most other places in the world where we are NOT crazy*...virtually every singly 121 or 135 operator has a policy against touching anything on the rollout...that is a fact.
At AUC, we will only touch stuff on the overhead (start APU/open bleed air) unless we are doing touch and goes (during spring training), and our flaps are on the console behind the trim wheel, while the gear handle is on the lower part of the instrument panel.
*(If you think I think you are really crazy, you need to become less sensitive):laff:
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
that glassy water landing is insane. I'll never see anything like that here in the bayou. I need to get to alaska once my time is up down here.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Oh I'm sorry...you bayou folks are nuts too!
