Flap retraction on the runway

jtrain609 said:
Don't make configuration changes until you're off the runway.

You are extremely unlikely (to the point of probably not being able to find it) find an air carrier that teaches you to make configuration changes while you're on the runway.

Open and shut.
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its not quite that open and shut. if you fly into large airports and have 10k feet of rwy, then it doesnt matter, but there are certain cases it does matter.
 
cmill said:
its not quite that open and shut. if you fly into large airports and have 10k feet of rwy, then it doesnt matter, but there are certain cases it does matter.
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Open, and shut.

When I flew 172's, I would put flaps up on the runway.

It was the wrong procedure, and I admit as much now. I was wrong to do it, though I was taught that way.

Once I started flying with some standardization, there were no configuration changes on the runway.

And honestly dude, if you can't get a 172 stopped with the flaps down you're doing it wrong.
 
jtrain609 said:
Open, and shut.

When I flew 172's, I would put flaps up on the runway.

It was the wrong procedure, and I admit as much now. I was wrong to do it, though I was taught that way.

Once I started flying with some standardization, there were no configuration changes on the runway.

And honestly dude, if you can't get a 172 stopped with the flaps down you're doing it wrong.
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All im trying to say is, the same procedure doesnt work in every situation.
 
cmill said:
All im trying to say is, the same procedure doesnt work in every situation.
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It does in the standardized world. There are no variables, ever. No one ever needs to put something slick down on a short runway. It just doesn't happen.
 
cmill said:
All im trying to say is, the same procedure doesnt work in every situation.
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I'm aware.

I am.

Sorry maing, there are just some things I'm dug in about anymore. I know one guy who got himself a 709 ride because he put the gear up instead of the flaps in a piston single because the squat switch didn't activate, I had a student try to do the exact same thing to make (raised the gear instead of the flaps), thankfully the auto gear extension system kept the gear down (we were in an Arrow, and I think light enough that I'm not convinced the squat switch was depressed).

There are too many things that can go wrong while doing a procedure that won't do you very much good. If you're not going to make the taxiway because the flaps are down? Roll to the next one. If you're going to lose directional control because the flaps are down? You shouldn't have landed because the aircraft limitations have obviously been exceeded. If you're going to become airborne without the flaps coming up, you screwed up and touched down too fast.

Open, and shut.
 
esa17 said:
It does in the standardized world. There are no variables, ever. No one ever needs to put something slick down on a short runway. It just doesn't happen.
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You have performance charts for a reason; either the airplane will stop, or it will not.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm aware.

I am.

Sorry maing, there are just some things I'm dug in about anymore. I know one guy who got himself a 709 ride because he put the gear up instead of the flaps in a piston single because the squat switch didn't activate, I had a student try to do the exact same thing to make (raised the gear instead of the flaps), thankfully the auto gear extension system kept the gear down (we were in an Arrow, and I think light enough that I'm not convinced the squat switch was depressed).

There are too many things that can go wrong while doing a procedure that won't do you very much good. If you're not going to make the taxiway because the flaps are down? Roll to the next one. If you're going to lose directional control because the flaps are down? You shouldn't have landed because the aircraft limitations have obviously been exceeded. If you're going to become airborne without the flaps coming up, you screwed up and touched down too fast.

Open, and shut.
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I understand theres no reason to do certain things the vast majority of the time, but for some of us there is. You just cant make a blanket statement for all types of flying, because some operators fly the aircraft to the very edge of the envelope.
 
cmill said:
I understand theres no reason to do certain things the vast majority of the time, but for some of us there is. You just cant make a blanket statement for all types of flying, because some operators fly the aircraft to the very edge of the envelope.
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Right, you're referring to flying float planes right?
 
jtrain609 said:
Right, you're referring to flying float planes right?
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for the most part yes. Floats do operate much differently than land planes, but even in a land plane scenario, theres situations where an extra 150ft can make the difference. I'm just saying its not right to make blanket statements.
 
jtrain609 said:
You have performance charts for a reason; either the airplane will stop, or it will not.
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How about the procedure that those performance charts were based on?

In the Cessna where the POH says the short field procedure was to land, raise the flaps hold full back yoke and apply maximum brake do you think that was the procedure that the test pilots used to gather their data?
 
cmill said:
for the most part yes. Floats do operate much differently than land planes, but even in a land plane scenario, theres situations where an extra 150ft can make the difference. I'm just saying its not right to make blanket statements.
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If that extra 150 feet make a different, you're gonna have one hell of a time getting that plane out of that runway when you go to leave.
 
jtrain609 said:
You have performance charts for a reason; either the airplane will stop, or it will not.
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Ok, you're right. I forgot everything always goes perfectly and those charts are always 100% accurate across the entire performance envelope.

There is a HUGE difference in the type of flying you did and the type of flying I do. What works in your world can save lives there but just as quickly take them in mine. I'm not always afforded the luxury of rolling down to the next taxiway so instead I've trained, and do train people, to plan for a specific event and eliminate the ONE thing that can go wrong.

Thats right, ONE. The gear.

Don't ever touch the gear handle and you don't have to worry about a squat switch. Even when the flap and gear handles are situated right next to each other that can easily be trained away. I've never once had a student almost retract the gear and I've taught this way for quite a while. It's all about what you put in their head.

Expedience is not panic. Panic is a whole other animal. If you floated too long and tried to plant it, then tried to lift the flaps that's a whole separate issue. Many things went wrong way before touchdown to create those situations.

Nothing is ever black and white and the and individual situations should be treated as such. If I've got 8000ft ahead of me I'm rolling to a stop but if I'm coming into a 1800ft grass runway with a 90 degree crosswind I'm getting down and stopped as quickly and safely as possible.

Sorry if that cramps your style a bit.
 
spbrian said:
How about the procedure that those performance charts were based on?

In the Cessna where the POH says the short field procedure was to land, raise the flaps hold full back yoke and apply maximum brake do you think that was the procedure that the test pilots used to gather their data?
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It says for maximum braking to do that, and I still would say it's a really, really bad idea.

Like I said, I've got my reasons, and I haven't flown at an air carrier that will let you do so.

I'm still going to say it's open and shut. After 12 years of flying 172's around, I can't find a good reason for doing it, and I was trained to raise the flaps while still moving.
 
jtrain609 said:
It says for maximum braking to do that, and I still would say it's a really, really bad idea.
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And you'd be wrong for NOT flying the plane to the full extent of it's capabilities. That's like never using 5th gear.

Uncomfortable does not mean unsafe.
 
jtrain609 said:
It says for maximum braking to do that, and I still would say it's a really, really bad idea.

Like I said, I've got my reasons, and I haven't flown at an air carrier that will let you do so.

I'm still going to say it's open and shut. After 12 years of flying 172's around, I can't find a good reason for doing it, and I was trained to raise the flaps while still moving.
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so are you saying its right to keep the flaps down under all circumstances?
 
esa17 said:
Ok, you're right. I forgot everything always goes perfectly and those charts are always 100% accurate across the entire performance envelope.

There is a HUGE difference in the type of flying you did and the type of flying I do. What works in your world can save lives there but just as quickly take them in mine. I'm not always afforded the luxury of rolling down to the next taxiway so instead I've trained, and do train people, to plan for a specific event and eliminate the ONE thing that can go wrong.
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You're afforded that luxury. The entire runway is yours. If you're not man enough to tell the controller, or the pilot behind you to make some room, then that's YOUR problem.

Thats right, ONE. The gear.

Don't ever touch the gear handle and you don't have to worry about a squat switch.
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Great advice.

Even when the flap and gear handles are situated right next to each other that can easily be trained away.
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Which is why nobody has ever made that mistake.

I've never once had a student almost retract the gear and I've taught this way for quite a while. It's all about what you put in their head.
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I have.

Expedience is not panic. Panic is a whole other animal. If you floated too long and tried to plant it, then tried to lift the flaps that's a whole separate issue. Many things went wrong way before touchdown to create those situations.

Nothing is ever black and white and the and individual situations should be treated as such. If I've got 8000ft ahead of me I'm rolling to a stop but if I'm coming into a 1800ft grass runway with a 90 degree crosswind I'm getting down and stopped as quickly and safely as possible.

Sorry if that cramps your style a bit.
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It doesn't cramp anything. You can make all the bad decisions you want, but I won't sit here while folks try to justify bad decision making.
 
cmill said:
so are you saying its right to keep the flaps down under all circumstances?
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Did you not get that impression? I can ramble on for a few more pages if you'd like just so we make sure you understand that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

Don't. Make. Configuration. Changes. On. The. Runway.

If you don't land on a runway, then it doesn't apply to you.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're afforded that luxury. The entire runway is yours. If you're not man enough to tell the controller, or the pilot behind you to make some room, then that's YOUR problem.
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Sometimes the entire runway is all you have to work with. Some of us arent afforded the luxury of having extra room. We gotta use what we have.
 
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