RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
Most of them really want to train in Detroit anyways.
[\QUOTE]
You're in idiot for not knowing it's "anyway" without the "s".:dunno::rotfl:
It's a pet peeve of mine.
Looks like California is now regulating flight schools
- Thread starter JOEFRIDAY2
- Start date
TXTBOOK
Well-Known Member
This is true and part of the problem. Economically, it matters not who gets taxed (the business or the consumer). You get the same economic outcome as the business will pass the tax on to the consumer and vice versa.
Well, that's not true, as I know people who have gotten tickets for not wearing their seatbelt while just driving down the street.
I'm talking more of the business cycle time line, and less of the "money stolen" time line. Perfectly honest (and most) flight schools in California will suffer in a time of economic hardship.
It's never the wrong time to raise tax in California.
The people of Florida decide for themselves, unlike California where it's the gov that does the deciding.
I agree.
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
No avenues of redress already exist for a student that has been harmed by a flight school
That is the problem! Millions of dollars have been stolen from students in California over the past few years with no refunds.
The new regulatory process will insure the school has the proper assets to operate a business. If the school goes out of business then the California state tuition recovery fund will refund their tuition.
In addition there are potential CRIMINAL penalties for those that steal money from students and do not comply with the regulations. That can mean jail time for those that break the law. This is also a new concept for flight school operators.
Joe
How will they be paying these students, where is the money coming from? Why 5000 dollars? Why a certain percentage? It's just a way to steal money from schools because most of it will be used as revenue rather than helping people that have been screwed. NO THANKS!
sr22driver
what had happened was...
Joe,
Have you ever worked at a flight school, not one of these Big 141 schools but a mom and pop FBO type? The reason I ask is because most of these small schools are hurting right now. With the downturn in the economy there are fewer domestic students with the funds to start flight training. With fewer students most small schools have to cut back on staff and advertising to be able to pay the bills. When you toss a 5K "application fee" it makes it that much harder for those schools to operate.
I welcome any response you may have
aloft
New Member
Silver State Helicopters was very reputable, right up until they shuttered their doors.
You're in idiot for not knowing it's "anyway" without the "s".
It's a pet peeve of mine.
Pot, this is kettle, radio check, over.
And knock off the namecalling.
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
Civil and/or criminal courts are avenues if the victim so decides to persue that avenue. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that option is not available to students who are defrauded.
How will this new regulation aid a defrauded student? Will the state prosecute in the name of the student? Will the student be 100% compensated? How is that different than the satisfaction as currently provided through the court system?
Will the state even seek restitution on the part of the defrauded students? Or will the state simply settle for jail time (or a plea) and leave the student to their own devices? And what of the monies fined through the regulatory action, will they pass into the state's general fund? Will any monies actually be provided to the students?
Now, somewhat tangental but pertinent: just how many "defrauded students" are we talking about? What percentage of the total student population are we talking about? Why should 100% of the student population pay for what, 5%, of the population who might possibly be subject to fraud perpetuated by a school? Is it even 5%?
This reminds me of the "dire need" for national health care reform. Why should 100% of the population take a big hit for the fraction of a percent of the population who can't provide for themselves? (something tells me I'll be sorry for even mentioning that)
This is a money grab by a bankrupt state....
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
anecdotal but worthy of discussion...
I once knew of 2 students from Germany who had their logbooks withheld by a Pt 141 flight school in California until the students provided addtional payment to the school. And their student visas were just about to expire so yes, there was some amount of duress to the students. While the students disputed the amount due, they did agree some amount was due to the school.
Under this new regulation, would those foreign students be protected? Was there actual fraud? What procedure would this new reg put in place to find in fact that there was fraud?
Yes, I'll have to read the bill as proposed but what I am trying to illustrate is that some students may slip through the cracks of a regulation which is supposedly to protect those students.
I once knew of 2 students from Germany who had their logbooks withheld by a Pt 141 flight school in California until the students provided addtional payment to the school. And their student visas were just about to expire so yes, there was some amount of duress to the students. While the students disputed the amount due, they did agree some amount was due to the school.
Under this new regulation, would those foreign students be protected? Was there actual fraud? What procedure would this new reg put in place to find in fact that there was fraud?
Yes, I'll have to read the bill as proposed but what I am trying to illustrate is that some students may slip through the cracks of a regulation which is supposedly to protect those students.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
How about mandatory state inspections of the flight school and its facilities annually?
Why do all the other good flight schools have to pay when one flight school does the wrong thing?
Why do all the other good flight schools have to pay when one flight school does the wrong thing?
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
Sounds like job creation. Well done, Arnie Obama. Who regulates the inspectors? Is the state now auditing the finances of private industry?
Because it's wealth redistribution. The state dictates....it is NOT the principal on which this nation was founded. Oh gawd, here we gooooooooo!
Kettle, this is pot. Roger out.
vikingair
Well-Known Member
Most of them really want to train in Detroit anyways.
[\QUOTE]
You're in idiot for not knowing it's "anyway" without the "s".
It's a pet peeve of mine.
I believe what you intended to write was "You're AN idiot...." It isn't a pet peeve of mine so I won't spend too much time pointing it out. ANYWAYS, I'm an idiot for much much better reasons!
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Well if you read the regulation you will see that students that are covered by the tuition refund are those students that have had .75% of their tuition paid to the California Student Tuition Recovery Fund.
I do not see any place where this money goes into the California general fund.
The $5000 is what California charges (and had charged) other vocational and secondary schools for licensing. These other schools (truck driving, bar tending, medical assistants, computer training, massage therapy, restaurant managment, etc) all charge far less for their training than flight schools charge. Yet those other vocational schools have been able to pay the $5000 without a problem. These schools keep renewing their licenses because there is money to be made teaching students. Do you think a school taking in hundreds of thousands of dollars (or millions of dollars) each year is going to give that revenue up over a $5000 fee?
Why should all other secondary and vocational schools have to be licensed except those teaching flight training? Is this industry that special?
Flight schools have had a "free ride" from the regulation for decades and have been exempt from all such regulation because the states believed that the FAA was actually regulating flight schools. This has allowed the bad guys to come in and take advantage of students. The losses have run into the millions of dollars in California alone.
Unfortunately when bad guys scam, scheme and steal, we get regulations.
If you don't want the regulations just figure out a way to get those students from Silver State and Jet University and American School of Aviation a full refund for their millions of dollars of losses. so far there has not been one student out of all of these thousands of students that has received a refund for their losses. The courts don't work when the bad guys take all of the money.
Then when you are done with that arrange a refund for all of the other students that have lost money in flight schools because of this scam.
Short of that you are going to be stuck with the regulation and it is going to clean up this industry. And I predict it is going to roll through Florida, Texas and Arizona before this is over with.
Joe
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Ok, that's a fair question. I don't work in a flight school. I have never worked in a flight school. I have been a customer of several flight schools both big and small. I've seen and experienced the good and the bad.
I have worked in small business most of my adult life. I have owned small businesses. I know what it's like to make a payroll, have to make rent, electric, insurance, comply with regulations, file taxes, get customers, keep customers happy, etc. It's not a walk in the park. It's tough out there.
However, when you hang your shingle out as a flight school and you are going to be charging tens of thousands of dollars to a student for flight training, it is important that you have the financial resources to deliver that training. A flight school is held to a higher standard than a candy store.
The students money must be protected. That is what this is all about.
My advise is that if you aren't making money as a flight school then you need to get it making money or get out of that business and do something else that will make you money. If $5000 is going to make or break your business then your business is in deep trouble.
Joe
From what schools? Other than that helicopter school(Silver State I think).
Edit: That money (Silver State) wasn't just in california, it was nation wide.