Amusing, but sad, time-building pitch

Patrick said:
Thus, the safety pilot can only log 2.6, as PIC or SIC (though everyone logs PIC). I've seen way too many people log the entire thing (3.1 in this case) as PIC cross country, which you just can't do.
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Show me where in the regs this is stated (the PIC part, not XC). Though I hear this all the time, I've never been satisfied with the reasoning behind it. Does other SIC time not count during taxi time?

The FAA defines pilot time as: "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight" If you are a required crew member for the flight, I don't see how one can cease to be required at any point. I personally log things that can't be used for a certificate or rating anyway, I just don't use that time towards a certificate or rating. Nothing wrong with that.

The other logic problem I have with this - if you are in and out of the clouds, the Pilot flying is still probably under the hood. The safety pilot needs to be there to tell when you entered and left IMC, and to look for traffic immediately upon becoming VMC. I guess the PF could take the foggles off upon entering each cloud, and put them on once becoming VMC, but how safe is that really...
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Show me where in the regs this is stated (the PIC part, not XC). Though I hear this all the time, I've never been satisfied with the reasoning behind it. Does other SIC time not count during taxi time?

The FAA defines pilot time as: "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight" If you are a required crew member for the flight, I don't see how one can cease to be required at any point.
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The FAA legal counsel does not agree with you and said so quite clearly in a letter of opinion to a Mr Gebhart dated June 22, 2009. You can find the letter by searching the FAA website for it but the applicable sections of text are quoted below.

Your letter presents an example to illustrate your questions. In the example, Pilot A and
Pilot B, who both are rated in the aircraft, take a flight between two airports that are
separated by 187 nautical miles. As agreed to prior to the flight, Pilot A flies the aircraft and
Pilot B acts as the PIC. Although the flight is conducted in visual meteorological
conditions, Pilot A operates the aircraft in simulated instrument flight with Pilot B acting as
a safety pilot. The total flight time is 2.2 hours and the total simulated instrument time is 2.0
hours. Your letter asks how much PIC flight time and cross-country flight time can be​

logged by Pilots A and B.
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In your example, Pilot A may log the entire flight (2.2 hours) of PIC flight time because that
pilot was the sole manipulator of the controls for the entire flight. Pilot B may log the
portion of the flight during which Pilot A operated in simulated instrument flight and Pilot B
acted as the safety pilot (2.0 hours) because Pilot B was a required flight crewmember for​

that portion of the flight under 14 C.F.R. § 91.109(b).
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I think this makes it quite clear that in the eyes of the FAA, the safety pilot is only a required crew member while the pilot flying is under the hood and therefore may only log that portion of the flight.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
]I think this makes it quite clear that in the eyes of the FAA, the safety pilot is only a required crew member while the pilot flying is under the hood and therefore may only log that portion of the flight.
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Thanks, I'll google for the text.

Thankfully, the .6 hours of safety pilot taxi time I've logged was all zero/zero taxi under the hood ;)
 
Patrick said:
While I have my personal opinions on safety pilot time (namely that if allowed, it should be only loggable as SIC), the regs and FAA interpretation are extremely clear in how it can be logged.

Safety pilot time is only loggable when the flying pilot is under simulated instrument conditions. If the flight goes IMC, the safety pilot cannot log anything. The phases of flight where the flying pilot is flying visually (typically takeoff and landing), the safety pilot cannot log anything. Further, while the flying pilot taxis, the safety pilot cannot log anything. For most training aircraft equipped with both a Hobbs and tach time, the flying pilot will log the entire flight (say 3.1 Hobbs), and log only the time spent under the hood (say 2.6), the balance being either visual flight or ground ops (or if the flight went IMC, he would log actual). Thus, the safety pilot can only log 2.6, as PIC or SIC (though everyone logs PIC). I've seen way too many people log the entire thing (3.1 in this case) as PIC cross country, which you just can't do.
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My question is why did the subject of logging flight time have to get so complicated in the first place, especially when there's no mechanism available to ensure people are logging time properly in the first place?
 
SteveC said:
But your original quote was concerning PIC time, not XC time.

:confused:
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Yeah that is what I was asking. Certainly a safety pilot cannot log XC time. PIC time is completely legal. Now we have plenty of long JC threads about the ethics of such time, but it is certainly legal to log as PIC.

As Patrick mentioned, only when the other pilot is under the hood can the other person log PIC. Logging the whole hobbs time seems to be less abused than the logging of the cross country time, which is easier to catch.
 
I think I found mine!

27xea8.jpg
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Yeah that is what I was asking. Certainly a safety pilot cannot log XC time. PIC time is completely legal. Now we have plenty of long JC threads about the ethics of such time, but it is certainly legal to log as PIC.

As Patrick mentioned, only when the other pilot is under the hood can the other person log PIC. Logging the whole hobbs time seems to be less abused than the logging of the cross country time, which is easier to catch.
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The ethics are fine IMO, but the usefulness of that time is suspect. Employers often only count PIC time in which you signed for the airplane.
 
I just got a spam email from these guys. Rife with spelling and grammatical mistakes. Almost reads like a Nigerian scam letter.

Morgan: The Airlines are hiring? Where will you be in two years? 500 Hr blocks, $94.00 per hr wet (includes fuel) for PIC multi-engine time. Includes fuel, checkout, charts, insurance. 250 hrs wet @97.00. 100 hrs @ $96.00 per hr wet for PIC multi-engine time. MAY ONLY! You can't beat our program on price or speed of completion or flying experience. Period. We look forward to flying with you!
If you buy your time in May, you can lock in the $85.00 per hr rate wet till September! 15 days or less for 100 hrs under Part 91. You buy the time, you fly the time. We need you to go to the website below, go to the Documents Tab, follow the checklist, the PFD file titled funds is our Band of America account. Once you have deposited $9600.00 usd for 100 hrs or $19,200.00 usd for 200 hrs you can split up the time, and we have your documents we will put you on the schedge. Simple. We are closing out May and working on June! We do offer Commercial Multi Add on training. Call us for pricing!

Still pursuing your dream of being a Professional Pilot? Whether Airlines or Corporate we can facilitate your dream. If you hold a Commercial Multi-engine Instrument rating, you can build the "Golden Key" of multi-engine time to get Hired! If you are paying more than $96.00 per hr wet for PIC Seneca 1 or $70.00 per hr wet for C-172, then you are wasting time and money. Remember, I will also pay you 3% of the gross on any leads you send me who fly with APPP. My contact info and website are below, I look forward to talking with you soon. In life, you can have the Cadillac or the Steak knives, its up to you. Do the Math: Each month you don't fly for the airlines = $1800.00 per month x 12 = $21,600.00 per year. Can you afford not to fly with us?

Jeff

Accelerated Professional Pilot Program LLC

Jeffrey M. Britt, Sr. Senior Development/ Sales Manager. multienginetime13@yahoo.com
49 N. Federal Hwy Suite 255
Pompano FL 32062 Telephone: 305-510-8817 Fax 866-629-5739
APPP Website: multi-enginetime.com watch our you tube video!!
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I was hoping for a good laugh from their youtube video but it was removed due to a terms of service violation. It probably ended with some young looking FO walking off the jetway from his regional jet right into the Cadillac dealership with $21,600 in his pocket.
 
I HAVE GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!
Seems the airlines are hiring and they are NOW paying 2,500.00 per month.
I have replied, hope the guy's not to pissed

Jim: The Airlines are hiring? Where will you be in two years? 500 Hr blocks, $94.00 per hr wet (includes fuel) for PIC multi-engine time. Includes fuel, checkout, charts, insurance. 250 hrs wet @97.00. 100 hrs @ $96.00 per hr wet for PIC multi-engine time. You can't beat our program on price or speed of completion or flying experience. Period. We look forward to flying with you! 15 days or less for 100 hrs under Part 91. All TIME IS PIC TIME, no mickey mouse(safety pilot) time. You buy the time, you fly the time. You fly on YOUR SCHEDULE! We need you to go to the website below, go to the Documents Tab, follow the checklist, the PFD file titled funds is our Band of America account. Once you have deposited $9600.00 usd for 100 hrs or $19,200.00 usd for 200 hrs, and we have your documents we will put you on the schedge. Simple. We are closing out May and working on June! We do offer Commercial Multi Add on training. Call us for pricing! $92.00 per hr wet for military!!

Still pursuing your dream of being a Professional Pilot? Whether Airlines or Corporate we can facilitate your dream. If you hold a Commercial Multi-engine Instrument rating, you can build the "Golden Key" of multi-engine time to get Hired! If you are paying more than $96.00 per hr wet forPIC Seneca 1 or $70.00 per hr wet for C-172, then you are wasting time and money. Remember, I will also pay you 3% of the gross on any leads you send me who fly with APPP. My contact info and website are below, I look forward to talking with you soon. In life, you can have the Cadillac or the Steak knives, its up to you. Do the Math: Each month you don't fly for the airlines = $2500.00 per month x 12 = $30,000.00 per year. Can you afford not to fly with us?

Jeff

Dear Jeff;
I left a job making 4 times that amount and if you think I'm going to spend 20+k on a time building scheme you have another think coming.
I will continue to build time the OLD FASHIONED way. I am quite happy getting PAID to fly the Cirrus and instruct.
When and if the airlines do start to hire, the only effect it will have on me is that there may be a navajo/pilatus right seat job opening up. Landing that job will require that I buy the owner of the aircraft a bottle of good bourbon and maybe a steak dinner.
I appriciate your interest in my career, and thank you for taking the time to send me a poorly written form letter with grammatical errors a third grader would have had the intellect to proof read.

Jim
 
sr22driver said:
Dear Jeff;
I left a job making 4 times that amount and if you think I'm going to spend 20+k on a time building scheme you have another think coming.
I will continue to build time the OLD FASHIONED way. I am quite happy getting PAID to fly the Cirrus and instruct.
When and if the airlines do start to hire, the only effect it will have on me is that there may be a navajo/pilatus right seat job opening up. Landing that job will require that I buy the owner of the aircraft a bottle of good bourbon and maybe a steak dinner.
I appriciate your interest in my career, and thank you for taking the time to send me a poorly written form letter with grammatical errors a third grader would have had the intellect to proof read.

Jim
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D'oh.
 
mojo6911 said:
I just got a spam email from these guys. Rife with spelling and grammatical mistakes. Almost reads like a Nigerian scam letter.
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Here is the one thing I don't get about the "program". You can get 500 hours at 94 (what a deal), and you pay 97 per hour for 250... ok, so you get a better deal for the more hours you get. Then I saw it was 96 per hour for 100 hours??? So it is cheaper to buy the shorter package? Just buy it twice.

I know a lot of people are looking to get quality multi, but I am not sure a program like this is the best deal. Like others have said, try to MEI your way to a couple of hours. I know some companies still see Multi time as "gold", but there are those that will look past it for other quality time as well. For my current job they wanted 500 multi, and I think I had around 380 when I got hired.
 
Taha said:
I was hoping for a good laugh from their youtube video but it was removed due to a terms of service violation. It probably ended with some young looking FO walking off the jetway from his regional jet right into the Cadillac dealership with $21,600 in his pocket.
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Does this company spike your hair & give you a free ipod??

If so count me in, I could also use some steak knives.
 
rdsoxpilot said:
Does this company spike your hair & give you a free ipod??

If so count me in, I could also use some steak knives.
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Totally, it could be like the gig we had before, except this time we could pay for it instead of getting paid. Maybe they also supply hair dye so I can frost my tips aswell.
 
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