Some questions for you jet drivers...

[Orange Anchor]

I don't know how the Airbusses' (or is it Airbussi) guys deal with it, I hear their thurst levers don't even move, at all, until on the ground. I flew the A380 sim in Dubai for about 30 minutes and the only thing I didn't like about it was the non-moving throttles.

Non-moving throttles with auto-thrust. You can disengage autothrust if you wish and push/pull just like any other throttle but you have to have oxygen available if there is a check airman in sight. Some almost faint seeing such daring exhibitions.

Having said that, one quickly adjusts to actually looking at the instruments for information and not focusing on tactile feedback for cues. Sounds are still there so it is not that different.

 

[Orange Anchor]

The gist of my question(s) is(are) do the normal stuff we do in small singles/twins translate directly to jets? I.E. is a jet more/less forgiving than a small plane in the approach phase.

The jets I have flown are far more docile than my Swift. In either case, it takes very little inattention or lack of skill to find yourself in a predicament.

Flight regime, case 1. Lose power, increase angle of attack to bleed airspeed quickly while maintaining altitude.

Big plane, small plane, no difference. Go for L/D.

Flight regime case 2. "Large power changes" during approach/intercepting glide path.

Power as required. Gusty winds may require large power changes but for example, on the 737, 727 and 757, you can set a ball park thrust (2500-2800lbs/hr/eng) and maintain level flight. As airspeed bleeds off, keep configuring. You never have to make big power changes. And most jet engines are in a range on final where you have almost instant power response due to the drag profile. And you're not going to be way back on the power with a stable approach. Too, you learn which engines have a lag time on spool up and it becomes second nature. The CFM-56 has improved but early models took a week to spool from idle.

Flight regime, case 3: having fun.

PROFESSIONAL pilots are not allowed to have *fun*. Just kidding. But the pilot community and culture varies from airline to airline. Some are a bit more bold than others.

But jets are often simpler to fly than turbo-props or power-limited props in that most of the time you have ample power, even with an engine failure or failures. And in the big stuff, you just never get that close to any edge of any envelop except through stupidity or a case of 'ever seen this?"

 

[Socal321]

I don't know how the Airbusses' (or is it Airbussi) guys deal with it, I hear their thurst levers don't even move, at all, until on the ground. I flew the A380 sim in Dubai for about 30 minutes and the only thing I didn't like about it was the non-moving throttles.

No they do, twice. Idle to TO thrust and idle before TD where the plane also calls you a retard. The pilot was telling me that you have to forget about conventional flying and just fly the Airbus way.

 

[Orange Anchor]

No they do, twice. Idle to TO thrust and idle before TD where the plane also calls you a retard. The pilot was telling me that you have to forget about conventional flying and just fly the Airbus way.

Three positions. Full takeoff thrust, derate and climb/cruise. And yes, the only other time you move them is for flare. No big deal. No trimming required but then the F-111 had that LONG ago. And if you want, the 737 had CCW control wheel steering which was sort of the same thing. The big difference is that aileron is roll rate and not surface deflection. That takes some getting used to for crosswinds. Otherwise.. just another airplane.

 

[beasly]

Thank you all.

b.

 

[beasly]

..... The big difference is that aileron is roll rate and not surface deflection. That takes some getting used to for crosswinds........

That's interesting. I don't understand, though.

In a small prop, roll-rate is proportional to the amount of aileron deflection; you wanna roll fast, put in a lot of aileron (ditto for other axis and their inputs). When you hit your bank attitude, roll out your aileron and maintain your attitude with small corrections.

How is it different in an airbus?

Also, thank you for all your earlier detailed responses. I really appreciate it.

Cordially,

b.

 

[dasleben]

That's interesting. I don't understand, though.

In a small prop, roll-rate is proportional to the amount of aileron deflection; you wanna roll fast, put in a lot of aileron (ditto for other axis and their inputs). When you hit your bank attitude, roll out your aileron and maintain your attitude with small corrections.

How is it different in an airbus?

Also, thank you for all your earlier detailed responses. I really appreciate it.

Cordially,

b.

Not an Airbus pilot, but it seems to me that control pressures would be independent of airspeed. Want the airplane to roll at a certain rate? You have to put in the same amount of control pressure, regardless of being fast or slow.

How'd I do?

 

[beasly]

Not an Airbus pilot, but it seems to me that control pressures would be independent of airspeed. Want the airplane to roll at a certain rate? You have to put in the same amount of control pressure, regardless of being fast or slow.

How'd I do?

I think in terms of deflection, not pressure, but you have a point--on a small plane the two are proportional.



b.

 

[dasleben]

I think in terms of deflection, not pressure, but you have a point--on a small plane the two are proportional.



b.

Big planes too!

...normally.

Seriously, there's not a whole lot different. The biggest let down when I first transitioned into a jet was that it didn't feel much different. Flies the same as everything else I've flown, except the numbers on the screen are bigger. I stand by the fact that the jet I flew was easier to fly than big turbocharged piston twins.

 

[tgrayson]

on a small plane the two are proportional.

But that proportion changes with airspeed. If you get fast enough, you need boosted controls.

 

[C150J]

As for power changes, I think a lot of us strive to make as few changes as possible throughout the flight for smoothness and stability (with the exception of gusty conditions or expeditious ATC assignments). I generally do not overshoot/undershoot as you mentioned, but set known fuel flows and N2 settings that will eventually reach a desired airspeed. I would argue that the technique you mention wouldn't work too well in a jet, as you begin to see the trend vector "sling shot," and it is generally uncomfortable for passengers. That being said, your emphasis on setting "enough" power to reach a desired airspeed is important, as you'll end up burning less fuel than constantly trying to reach the speed bug from slower speeds (there's a great explanation of this in "Professional Pilot").

For example, in the CRJ, I generally set 70-79% N2 when configuring for landing, and then 81-85% N2 when fully configured. If doing a flight-idle descent, it is especially important to bring in the power slowly, as doing it quickly shoves you deep into your seat.

 

[Crockrocket94]

I don't think I've ever used N2 to set anything. Is that a CRJ thing?

 

[C150J]

I don't think I've ever used N2 to set anything. Is that a CRJ thing?

Must be a CRJ thing! Tends to work really well when setting thrust for approach/landing, whereas fuel flows work great for yielding high airspeeds.

 

[minitour]

I don't think I've ever used N2 to set anything. Is that a CRJ thing?

You don't use N2 for descents with A/I on?

-mini

 

[woodreau]

You don't use N2 for descents with A/I on?

-mini

Depends on the flavor of CRJ you're flying. on some CRJs, you'll get the arc and it's up to you to make sure you get the thrust setting above the arc otherwise you may get the anti-ice caution. on other CRJs, the FADEC reschedules the flight idle thrust to a higher setting in attempt to keep the bleed temps up.

Flight regime, case 1. Lose power, increase angle of attack to bleed airspeed quickly while maintaining altitude.
Flight regime case 2. "Large power changes" during approach/intercepting glide path.
Flight regime, case 3: having fun.

I think it's a function of how well you know your aircraft. Just getting into a type, all you know is what you've learned in the simulator, but it doesn't translate well into real-world line flying. As you fly, you get a better feel of what the aircraft's actual capabilties are and what you are comfortable doing.

Case 1 - I misunderstood the original case - as the scenario I had in mind was going into a certain west-coast city from the mid-west, LA Center usually keeps us high - like FL240 40 miles from the airport, then gives us an "expedite to 9,000ft, altimeter 29xx" after crossing a certain VOR. Usually the technique I saw and started using was as we get close to the TOD is to slow to about 230kts, then VS down to 5500ft/min or 6000ft/min and deploy the flight spoilers - we end up accelerating to 330kts in the dive, but by the time you start levelling off to capture 9,000ft, the speed bleeds off to below 250kts and you have to add power in. Otherwise, you'd just get vectored around in a circle to get you down for approach.

But to slow down, usually I'll try to plan a level segment somewhere in the descent. I think that's a pretty normal thing.

Case 3 - I think it goes back to how comfortable are you with the aircraft.

 

[Orange Anchor]

That's interesting. I don't understand, though.

In a small prop, roll-rate is proportional to the amount of aileron deflection; you wanna roll fast, put in a lot of aileron (ditto for other axis and their inputs). When you hit your bank attitude, roll out your aileron and maintain your attitude with small corrections.

How is it different in an airbus?

Also, thank you for all your earlier detailed responses. I really appreciate it.

Cordially,

b.

For example, in a crosswind you crab down final and then cross control in the flare to land. When cross controlling you add and keep your aileron input. On the 'bus, you do not. You just kick out the crab with rudder.

with roll rate, more stick input gives you a faster roll rate but it is not a given aileron deflection. It is whatever is required to give you that desired roll rate. And the 'bus has an envelope that you can not exceed, something that many pilots find objectionable however, I thought of it as an area of carefree handling. It is not a fighter. The roll rate is fast enough so as to avoid anything one can see (reaction time to see and avoid). BUT the big thing is in windshear you go full aft stick and max thrust and you go to MAX angle of attack. No hunting for optimum AOA. No dancing on the burble. I like that.

 

[beasly]

For example, in a crosswind you crab down final and then cross control in the flare to land. When cross controlling you add and keep your aileron input. On the 'bus, you do not. You just kick out the crab with rudder.

with roll rate, more stick input gives you a faster roll rate but it is not a given aileron deflection. It is whatever is required to give you that desired roll rate. And the 'bus has an envelope that you can not exceed, something that many pilots find objectionable however, I thought of it as an area of carefree handling. It is not a fighter. The roll rate is fast enough so as to avoid anything one can see (reaction time to see and avoid). BUT the big thing is in windshear you go full aft stick and max thrust and you go to MAX angle of attack. No hunting for optimum AOA. No dancing on the burble. I like that.

Thank you, I am going to have to read up on that. very interesting.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Thank you, I am going to have to read up on that. very interesting.

Normally you would put in a bit of aileron and hold that input once you cancelled the crosswind but in the 'bus, holding the input would result in a constant roll rate. Again, it is not difficult but just a different way of doing things which is something that one learns from flying different machines. Each manufacturer thinks they know best and create the mix of compromises to achieve their goal of 'the best flying machine'. For that reason, most arguments of which is the best airplane depends on the flier and their concept of which set of compromises s/he likes the most. The best rule is to learn the weaknesses in the machine and the strengths. Play to the strengths and respect the weaknesses. It makes life much simpler and more enjoyable.