Was I wrong?

Y

youngflyer

Well-Known Member
Just got back from flying a 152 today... On the takeoff roll I passed through about 30 knots and the nose wheel started to shimmy violently enough to the point of almost losing directional control. I return, and am told that it was a technique error because I was not applying enough back pressure on the elevator and that I should just go out and try it again. While that might have been true, I refused, requested another plane which had no nose wheel problems and I accomplished the flight successfully. After I get back, the mechanic said the same thing about the elevator back pressure, and tries to bill me the .2 from the possibly faulty 152(He did not even test the nose wheel). I am open to criticism for sure as I am an extremely low time pilot, but I find it hard to believe that "I have just been doing all my takeoffs wrong since the time when I learned to fly". Am I wrong for refusing this plane? Also, has anybody encountered this type of problem?
 
youngflyer said:
Just got back from flying a 152 today... On the takeoff roll I passed through about 30 knots and the nose wheel started to shimmy violently enough to the point of almost losing directional control. I return, and am told that it was a technique error because I was not applying enough back pressure on the elevator and that I should just go out and try it again. While that might have been true, I refused, requested another plane which had no nose wheel problems and I accomplished the flight successfully. After I get back, the mechanic said the same thing about the elevator back pressure, and tries to bill me the .2 from the possibly faulty 152(He did not even test the nose wheel). I am open to criticism for sure as I am an extremely low time pilot, but I find it hard to believe that "I have just been doing all my takeoffs wrong since the time when I learned to fly". Am I wrong for refusing this plane? Also, has anybody encountered this type of problem?
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Fly a taildragger. Problem solved! A Cub or a Champ would do nicely.
 
youngflyer said:
Just got back from flying a 152 today... On the takeoff roll I passed through about 30 knots and the nose wheel started to shimmy violently. I return, and am told that it was a technique error because I was not applying enough back pressure on the elevator and that I should just go out and try it again. While that might have been true, I refused, requested another plane which had no nose wheel problems and I accomplished the flight successfully. After I get back, the mechanic said the same thing about the elevator back pressure, and tries to bill me the .2 from the possibly faulty 152(He did not even test the nose wheel). I am open to criticism for sure as I am an extremely low time pilot, but I find it hard to believe that "I have just been doing all my takeoffs wrong since the time when I learned to fly". Am I wrong for refusing this plane? Also, has anybody encountered this type of problem?
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That happens a lot, shimmy dampers have a bad habit of not doing what they're supposed to. It can get worse if you're wearing a nose-wheel pant.

You haven't been doing "all your takeoffs" wrong, you just haven't experienced that before. There are two fixes, apply backpressure and go fly or "service" the SD and wait 10 hours for it to start doing it again.

The first time it happened to me I did virtually the same thing. Now when it happens I pull back, go fly, and then find some 5606.
 
WacoFan said:
Fly a taildragger. Problem solved! A Cub or a Champ would do nicely.
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:clap:

I did most of my primary training in a 152A, and the nosewheel would shake pretty hard when I set down the nosewheel. I found that as I slowed down, the shaking would stop. Sometimes it would do it, sometimes it wouldn't. It happened quite a few time with my instructor on board, and he didn't ever say anything......... Not a professional opinion, but I don't think it's a big deal. If you weren't comfortable with it, getting a new plane was not a big deal. I never felt really comfortable in the 152 anyway.
 
I would say you did the right thing. Adding back pressure is a technique to temporarily get around a bad nose wheel and not a permanent fix for sub-par maintenance. This is one thing about GA that really bugs me, in that flight schools and mechanics often accept sub-par fixes and improvised technique to get around fixing it correctly.

Keep refusing the bird until it is fixed and don't pay a dime for something they won't fix properly. Good job on following your gut feeling.
 
I guess you've been lucky with your flying, or I'm just used to airplanes with crappy SD's. :insane:

You weren't wrong for going back, remember, you're the PIC Tim. You make the final decision.

Although, from what you discribed, it sounds like you would have been perfectly fine to fly, just apply some back pressure and it'll be a-ok.
 
It's not uncommon to experience that, and the more you fly the more you will come across abnormalities. I'd say you learned one of the most important lessons in aviation. If it doesn't feel right, or you aren't comfortable...don't accept the aircraft.
 
Never a bad idea to turn around, if you don't feel good about it during the takeoff roll then you're probably not going to feel good about it when you're coming in to land. Not usually good to be preoccupied while flying.
That being said, I've flown 150s with this issue, and never worried about it. My primary instructor never seemed to think it was a big deal, so that attitude was passed along to me.
 
Yeah, I only had 3 hours in the 152 at that time, so I guess I just was not used to it. Had I been with an instructor it might have been different, it didnt happen on my checkout though. Thanks for the responses though, they are enlightening.
 
bike21 said:
I would say you did the right thing. Adding back pressure is a technique to temporarily get around a bad nose wheel and not a permanent fix for sub-par maintenance. This is one thing about GA that really bugs me, in that flight schools and mechanics often accept sub-par fixes and improvised technique to get around fixing it correctly.

Keep refusing the bird until it is fixed and don't pay a dime for something they won't fix properly. Good job on following your gut feeling.
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This is a good answer. Unfortunately, it only really works on paper. Because the reality is, the shimmy damper on light Cessna nose gear is notorious for not doing its job. So notorious in fact, that nearly every pilot with more than 50 hours in light Cessna singles knows the work-around which is increase back pressure and take some weight off the nose gear until you're either going fast enough to get it flying (when it happens on takeoff) or going slow enough for the nose gear shimmy to stop on its own (when it happens on landing).

And that's where the problem comes in. You've got a MX problem that light Cessnas are notorious for having and you've got a viable and safe work around. When you combine those two factors with the shoe string MX budget that most flight schools operate under, it all adds up to this problem isn't getting fixed. Period. Or at least it isn't going to get fixed until the shimmy happens 100% of the time at any speed above a brisk walk.

So while having the attitude that you're not going to fly the plane until they fix it is generally a good attitude to have with flight school planes, in this particular case, I think it will just mean that you're eventually going to run out of planes to fly.

But to answer the OP's question directly, you weren't wrong for doing what you did. You were making the best decision you could make with information you had. You've got more information now. That may or may not cause you to make a different decision if you find yourself in the same situation again.
 
youngflyer said:
Just got back from flying a 152 today... On the takeoff roll I passed through about 30 knots and the nose wheel started to shimmy violently enough to the point of almost losing directional control.
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Great decision making! Even if this is a common problem with this plane type, you didn't know about it. It's not in your POH. You had enough field to stop and that's what you did. Besides, you don't know it's just a bad shimmy damper, it could be a flat tire. Then when you come back to land you face possibly bigger problems. Someone once told me that he powers up the aircraft, runs through checks, taxis, rolls down the runway, and the whole time untill V1 if one little thing goes wrong that's it, he quits. After V1 ok now I'm in the air. The go/no go decision is one that's a little more cowboy at the GA level, and that's too bad.

Don't worry about what the mechanic told you. For whatever reason it seems like that particular profession (along with engineering) seems to attract a know it all, one upper, poor social skills type of person. They don't have to put their backside on the line when something breaks on the airline, they just have to fix it. I'm not saying that all mechanics are like that, because there are definitely some very good understanding ones. Just that the few bad apples ruin it for everyone.

You may be occasionally ridiculed for conservative decision making, but who cares. You'll be alive while many people that made just one bad decision will not be. As you progress through aviation you'll be amazed at how many of them you knew personally.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
This is a good answer.
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Thanks, I thought so too ;)

You raised some good points as well and I certainly have accepted the ol' shimmy as part of the package like everyone else. The OP will develop his tolerance over time for what is acceptable and what is not, but I always tried to instill in my students a sense of non-compromise on crappy mx. Didn't hurt that our flight school didn't mess around with mx and our stuff was top notch most of the time.

Follow your gut feelings mixed in with your current knowledge level and most likely you will stay safe. It has worked for many of us for many thousands of hours. And of course, learn to draw the line and don't get pushed into flying broken airplanes. This applies at all levels of aviation.
 
greaper007 said:
You may be occasionally ridiculed for conservative decision making, but who cares. You'll be alive while many people that made just one bad decision will not be. As you progress through aviation you'll be amazed at how many of them you knew personally.
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Truer words have never been spoken. Know of at least one guy (who happened to be the stereotypical 'just sign it off guy') that is six feet under now.
 
I don't get the mtc shops that don't think it is worth dealing with.

That shaking is going directly into your engine mount, which is going right through your airframe. I can't see anything good that will come out of shaking a plane that hard. The fix for the SD is typically a couple new o rings and some fresh 5606. It really isn't too complicated.
 
bike21 said:
Adding back pressure is a technique to temporarily get around a bad nose wheel and not a permanent fix for sub-par maintenance.

Keep refusing the bird until it is fixed and don't pay a dime for something they won't fix properly. Good job on following your gut feeling.
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+1. It is not normal, and should be addressed. Don't fly it untill it is. And tell the mechanic to fix it, and to take the .2 and shove it. Maybe find a better school, and let them know why you left.

Ask if if Cessna desgined that Shimmy into their airplane.
 
Codyjp said:
I don't get the mtc shops that don't think it is worth dealing with.

That shaking is going directly into your engine mount, which is going right through your airframe. I can't see anything good that will come out of shaking a plane that hard. The fix for the SD is typically a couple new o rings and some fresh 5606. It really isn't too complicated.
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Except for all kinds of things come into play like shims from hell and pitting on the shaft. The end result is you end up spending 1.5 man hours fixing something that will just start doing it all over again after a few flight hours. Truthfully the shaking isn't that bad, certainly no worse than light chop. Now, the 1.5hrs might not seem like that big a deal but it rarely is just that quick.

Lets take a look at this event: (Please understand that I am not criticizing the OP. His decision is not in question here, he did what he thought was correct and that's what he should have done.)

AC owner lost the revenue from the canceled flight.

AC owner pays for the .2 on the hobbs which still eats into the 100hr.

Mech has to drop what they are doing and examine the aircraft. Upon finding the answer they spend some time explaining to the pilot what exactly was going on and why it's not a huge concern. That will take at least 45 minutes.

Mech then has to remove the plane from service which results in lost revenue.

Now the 1.5hr process to service the SD starts.

By the time all is said and done the better part of an entire day is spent dealing with a problem that will show up again very soon. The worst part is if you have a newbie mechanic service the SD by the book they'll soon find out that the communist Cessna engineers drew the diagram backwards so it has to be taken apart, refilled, and reassembled correctly.
 
mshunter said:
+1. It is not normal, and should be addressed. Don't fly it untill it is. And tell the mechanic to fix it, and to take the .2 and shove it. Maybe find a better school, and let them know why you left.

Ask if if Cessna desgined that Shimmy into their airplane.
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Well, thats well and good, but this is trainer. If you dont want shimmy, then dont fly a trainer. They could fix the shimmy, then have a student go out and mess up the dampener after one landing. Its just not worth the effort for a plane thats going to be abused like that.
 
Good points. I did end up flying another one of there aircraft(there were 4 other aircraft available), and if I was aware of this problem, I might have re-evaluated this situation. I guess things like this are just part of building experience. Esa, those are also good points, and although in reality it probably was not too bad, it sure did seem like it.
 
esa17 said:
Except for all kinds of things come into play like shims from hell and pitting on the shaft. The end result is you end up spending 1.5 man hours fixing something that will just start doing it all over again after a few flight hours. Truthfully the shaking isn't that bad, certainly no worse than light chop. Now, the 1.5hrs might not seem like that big a deal but it rarely is just that quick.

Lets take a look at this event: (Please understand that I am not criticizing the OP. His decision is not in question here, he did what he thought was correct and that's what he should have done.)

AC owner lost the revenue from the canceled flight.

AC owner pays for the .2 on the hobbs which still eats into the 100hr.

Mech has to drop what they are doing and examine the aircraft. Upon finding the answer they spend some time explaining to the pilot what exactly was going on and why it's not a huge concern. That will take at least 45 minutes.

Mech then has to remove the plane from service which results in lost revenue.

Now the 1.5hr process to service the SD starts.

By the time all is said and done the better part of an entire day is spent dealing with a problem that will show up again very soon. The worst part is if you have a newbie mechanic service the SD by the book they'll soon find out that the communist Cessna engineers drew the diagram backwards so it has to be taken apart, refilled, and reassembled correctly.
Click to expand...

Your serious?
 
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