WSJ Article on PSA at CRW

[minitour]

Chuck Norris was born with experience.

-mini

 

[granlistillo]

Never said he was. I'm not defending Boris...he's a big boy who can fight his own battles. However, you did just slam the entire JC community, did you not?

No

 

[dcramer16]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Did you get the part that there was a delay and the parking brake was set? Did you even read the CVR recording? Have you entered the discussion in the big boys thread, to talk about it?
I've talked about the Captains love of cars on several flights, but like this one, not on the roll. Again, hope this never happens to anyone here, but I regret any emotional energy I felt for you in your ad nauseum frustrated posts on your job situation.

I got the part that the pilots broke the FAR's by BS'ing about cars while they were suppost to be doing their JOB and put 30 peoples lives at risk. With all the dumb stuff that's been happening around aviation lately and all the negative publicity this was the last thing we need. It was very irresponsible and very inappropriate and they don't need to be in a cockpit again, ever.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Retarded Pilots

I got the part that the pilots broke the FAR's by BS'ing about cars while they were suppost to be doing their JOB and put 30 peoples lives at risk. With all the dumb stuff that's been happening around aviation lately and all the negative publicity this was the last thing we need. It was very irresponsible and very inappropriate and they don't need to be in a cockpit again, ever.

Well, hang on...the part where they were talking about cars wasn't during sterile ops. They had the brake set. The real issue here is that neither pilot caught that flaps 8 was set instead of 20, and then the CA rejected post-V1 after trying to correct the problem at high speed rather than rejecting early.

Lots of links in this chain, but the conversation about cars was legit.

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Well, hang on...the part where they were talking about cars wasn't during sterile ops. They had the brake set. The real issue here is that neither pilot caught that flaps 8 was set instead of 20, and then the CA rejected post-V1 after trying to correct the problem at high speed rather than rejecting early.

Lots of links in this chain, but the conversation about cars was legit.

The post V-1 abort, and the incorrect flap setting are the issues that can be taken from this that we can discuss and try to learn. It would be interesting to see what would have happened had they left the flaps at 8 and tried to go - would they have made it? I'm sure that can be modeled and I would like to see it. I also would love to see a wide ranging discussion of V1 issues - those are always fun and also relevant. The Travis Barker/DJ AM Lear was a post-V1 abort for blown tires. Seems that for something "clear-cut" V1 issues are still ambiguous for some, or they may be legitimate reasons to attempt a post-V1 abort. I'd love the thread to go in that direction.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

I got the part that the pilots broke the FAR's by BS'ing about cars while they were suppost to be doing their JOB and put 30 peoples lives at risk.

No you didn't. You don't know what you are talking about. You are saying ignorant and stupid things. You read what the Wall Street journal wanting the ignorant to think. Cars didn't have anything to do with this accident chain. I have flown this airplane, that flight and with that Captain a lot. He is all business when the brake is off. There is always a wait. You calling someone you don't know a moron is typical of your nutty posts. Again, if you have anything intelligent to add, if you are even a pilot, go to the thread under airlinepilots.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

The post V-1 abort, and the incorrect flap setting are the issues that can be taken from this that we can discuss and try to learn. It would be interesting to see what would have happened had they left the flaps at 8 and tried to go - would they have made it?

I made a post in the other thread. Obviously he knows and we all know he should have called the abort and started over, but once the final mistake was made, the master warnings came after v1 was called. At that point he could have firewalled it out of the flex setting and held it at the shaker and maybe she would have flown... But there was a t/o config spoiler msg too. The only reason I have ever read anywhere where you would abort after v1 is if you felt like the plane would not fly. What would I've done if I thought the boards were out? I don't think I would have tried to take it over the cliff and see.. At the end of the day, he might have made the right decision. The facts arent all out yet.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Again, if you have anything intelligent to add, if you are even a pilot, go to the thread under airlinepilots.

See, there you are insulting people again...not 20 minutes ago you told me I'd probably kill myself in a CRJ, and I set you straight pretty quickly. You haven't learned since then?

Personally attacking people you disagree with isn't going to help you make your point. In fact, it does quite the opposite.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: Retarded Pilots

I made a post in the other thread. Obviously he knows and we all know he should have called the abort and started over, but once the final mistake was made, the master warnings came after v1 was called. At that point he could have firewalled it out of the flex setting and held it at the shaker and maybe she would have flown... But there was a t/o config spoiler msg too. The only reason I have ever read anywhere where you would abort after v1 is if you felt like the plane would not fly. What would I've done if I thought the boards were out? I don't think I would have tried to take it over the cliff and see.. At the end of the day, he might have made the right decision. The facts arent all out yet.

Very hard to tell without being there in the cockpit or seeing FDR data from the event, but assuming the CA did chop the trust levers (all the way to idle) as soon as the config flaps warning went off, then the config spoiler warning becomes associated with the rejected takeoff, not the issue that caused the rejected takeoff.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

See, there you are insulting people again...not 20 minutes ago you told me I'd probably kill myself in a CRJ, and I set you straight pretty quickly. You haven't learned since then?

Personally attacking people you disagree with isn't going to help you make your point. In fact, it does quite the opposite.

Nah, That portion of a PM was taken way way out of context. Post the whole Pm if you are pull that. Bad bad form.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Very hard to tell without being there in the cockpit or seeing FDR data from the event, but assuming the CA did chop the trust levers (all the way to idle) as soon as the config flaps warning went off, then the config spoiler warning becomes associated with the rejected takeoff, not the issue that caused the rejected takeoff.

Doesn't happen in the sim that way... never had a rejected takeoff for real. Part of what he was criticized was that he didnt use reverse thrust. As I remember he said he wasn't sure if they were at flight idle, thus he couldn't crack the reserve thrust up. This happened very quickly. Not saying your wrong, just saying I don't know

 

[dcramer16]

Re: Retarded Pilots

You calling someone you don't know a moron is typical of your nutty posts. Again, if you have anything intelligent to add, if you are even a pilot, go to the thread under airlinepilots.

Do I have to be an airline pilot to be a "real" pilot? I think you're nutty too though so I guess we're even.

Ok, back on subject....

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Do I have to be an airline pilot to be a "real" pilot? I think you're nutty too though so I guess we're even.

Ok, back on subject....

Back on subject...

Until we have FDR correlation that the brake was set/not set, we don't know FOR sure whether sterile cockpit was broken.

For the non-121 aviators on here, I will say again, with emphasis:

Sterile cockpit does not apply when the aircraft is not moving and the parking brake is set. It does not matter where the aircraft is on the taxiway.

Brake off, all business.

 

[mooneyguy]

Re: Retarded Pilots

No you didn't. You don't know what you are talking about. You are saying ignorant and stupid things. You read what the Wall Street journal wanting the ignorant to think. Cars didn't have anything to do with this accident chain. I have flown this airplane, that flight and with that Captain a lot. He is all business when the brake is off. There is always a wait. You calling someone you don't know a moron is typical of your nutty posts. Again, if you have anything intelligent to add, if you are even a pilot, go to the thread under airlinepilots.

Unfortunately that day he/They decided to continue his conversation while taxiing out. I'm sure they we're (are?) both good pilots. They did make it into a flight deck of a (regional) airliner.

Unfortuantly for them that day they did talk when they should not have(so it appears).

16:08:44 he (CAPT) says flaps twenty then less then a minute later 16:09:02 & 08 (FO) says flaps 8. Now I'm not a CRJ pilot and I dont play one on TV either, but for those who do, was that first reference by the CA to flaps 20 calling for the flaps to be set at 20 for takeoff?

 

[dasleben]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Nah, That portion of a PM was taken way way out of context. Post the whole Pm if you are pull that. Bad bad form.

I don't think so. It was completely relevant to the conversation, and helps to show the rest of the group how dismissive you are of other pilots. As such, we're done talking.

Back on subject...

Until we have FDR correlation that the brake was set/not set, we don't know FOR sure whether sterile cockpit was broken.

For the non-121 aviators on here, I will say again, with emphasis:

Sterile cockpit does not apply when the aircraft is not moving and the parking brake is set. It does not matter where the aircraft is on the taxiway.

Brake off, all business.

Same applies to 135, as well. I wish the CVR would show when the brake was set vs. released.

 

[granlistillo]

You go one click at a time. The check can be done with the brake on as the rudder is checked at the after starts. If you read the CVR the exact second he clicked it to 8 he got a call from ground and never made the second click to 20. Distraction due to ATC not a corvette. That could happen to everyone, and they obviously missed the crosscheck on the MFD.

Mooneyguy this was for you question.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Retarded Pilots

I don't think so. It was completely relevant to the conversation, and helps to show the rest of the group how dismissive you are of other pilots. As such, we're done talking.



Same applies to 135, as well. I wish the CVR would show when the brake was set vs. released.

You know, you could probably extrapolate that from the FDR pretty easily. I don't know anything about the CRJ's brakes, but on the Embraer, the FDR measures brake pedal pressure application.

It would seem logical that a marked push on the pedals followed by a lack of pressure with 0 groundspeed would indicate that.

Heck, in the Embraer, could could probably hear it on the CVR.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

I don't think so. It was completely relevant to the conversation, and helps to show the rest of the group how dismissive you are of other pilots. As such, we're done talking.

Great there is an ignore list. The mods suggest that is used as well as PMs I thought the PM was an olive branch, and you twisted my intent 180 degrees. And btw despite your tough guy talk, you didn't set me straight. You are obviously the consummate professional and trustworthy too.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: Retarded Pilots

Doesn't happen in the sim that way... never had a rejected takeoff for real. Part of what he was criticized was that he didnt use reverse thrust. As I remember he said he wasn't sure if they were at flight idle, thus he couldn't crack the reserve thrust up. This happened very quickly. Not saying your wrong, just saying I don't know

And the sim is not the airplane... we all know that!

From the way I understand it, the sim can process information faster than the airplane... not sure the specifics of it, but probably has to do with size, length of wires, that kind of stuff.

The way I understand it, the airplane has a data transfer rate from the stone age and will occasionally still think it is above 70% N1 when the spoilers deploy on a rejected takeoff, thus triggering a "config spoilers" warning.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Retarded Pilots

And the sim is not the airplane... we all know that!

From the way I understand it, the sim can process information faster than the airplane... not sure the specifics of it, but probably has to do with size, length of wires, that kind of stuff.

The way I understand it, the airplane has a data transfer rate from the stone age and will occasionally still think it is above 70% N1 when the spoilers deploy on a rejected takeoff, thus triggering a "config spoilers" warning.

Makes sense to me, and I am glad you chimed in.. PSA took away our Flight manuals, FOMs and POHs hard copies. Heck some guys refused to turn in the system manual or stole them. But without the full report out, there will be some wholes in the picture.