How many fly as a "secondary" career?

[XLR99]

I think to some extent this is a chicken/egg discussion. For a lot of people, the compensation is so poor or unreliable that they're forced to get another job to make ends meet. Last year sometime there was an article in Flying(?) I think by Les Abend about other pilots at his airline who now view it as a second job. Remember all the threads from people who showed up for their job to find out the plane was sold, their base was closing, pay cuts, furlough notices, etc? This could be any of us, any day.
Hell, I almost got laid off from my supposedly stable nursing job before I fell into this one, so you really need a few separate income streams to be 'safe'.
But really, is it anyone else's business what your coworkers do on their time off? Doctor, lawyer, indian chief, or veg on the couch; as long as they show up when they're supposed to, do their job safely, and don't steal your stuff, who cares?

 

[Zero1Niner]

So the captain that doesn't need the job should step down just so that you can get his seat? That's quite a sense of entitlement don't you think? Did anyone step down just so that captain could get his seat? Probably not. And if not, why the 'eff should he have to step down just to help you? So many people seem to feel they're owed something. No one owes you anything. Ever. If you want that captains seat, get yourself there on your own merits just like he did.

+1

 

[av8rdrew]

My former Private and Instrument instructor was a former Mig 21 pilot who was also an engineer and instructed part time. He was also a Gold Seal CFI and was/is an excellent pilot.

Now my former instructor is flying for one of the majors and he's still doing his engineering and flight instructing on the side. I think the present economic condition of the world and country should have taught us all that we can't place all of our eggs in the one basket. I think this is an ideal time to learn another skill. Even before this downturn, theirs been turmoil in our industry and after this cycle is over, it'll come again at some point. I've got buddies who've been on furlough for almost two years. One guy even went and learned to drive a truck and moved on from part 121 flying(which I don't agree with, but his choice) as this had been his third furlough in about four carriers.

 

[jhugz]

So the captain that doesn't need the job should step down just so that you can get his seat? That's quite a sense of entitlement don't you think? Did anyone step down just so that captain could get his seat? Probably not. And if not, why the 'eff should he have to step down just to help you? So many people seem to feel they're owed something. No one owes you anything. Ever. If you want that captains seat, get yourself there on your own merits just like he did.

If the captain is there helping better the industry, active w/ the union, and working towards better work rules then I have no problem w/ him being there and taking up a seat no matter his other income. The problem lies w/ these Captains viewing the industry as a hobby and not striving for better work rules because this is just a second job/hobby for them.

Same thing for the CFI discussion. If you are a CFI doing it part time as a second job/hobby that is fine as long as you are charging the going rate in the area and not undercutting the other CFI's working there possibly full time.

 

[WacoFan]

I think a main point is this though - once you get to your specific seat in an airliner, who is anyone else to tell you what you can and can't do in your off hours? If I make my way to the left seat of a 777, but also have a more lucrative side business in some area...well, whose business is it but mine? It does not change the fact that I made it to the seat, nor does it change any material fact regarding my employment. The fact that people decide to do something besides fly means they are industrious, not detrimental. There is nothing keeping anyone else from starting a side business, nor is there a rule that you must - it is simply a personal choice. If you are a CFI that has to compete with part-timers - well, put out a better product and compete. If you are losing students to a part-timer there is a good chance that you would lose the student to a full-timer too. Don't focus on the peripheral issue - focus on why you lost that student. JetCareers is a for-profit business to the best of my knowledge. Whether it makes a profit or not is unknown to me, but it is a for-profit business and it certainly takes up much of Doug's time...but why shouldn't he be able to do this in his free time if he wants to? Is it ok if only marginal profits are made, but if he were making millions he would be honor bound to quit Southern Jets? I am not understanding the basic call for intrusion into other peoples lives or business. If you want to relax on days off - your call, good for you. Restore an antique airplane? Awesome. Sell real estate, run a commercial website, etc? Great, have fun.

 

[tjvpa28]

So the captain that doesn't need the job should step down just so that you can get his seat? That's quite a sense of entitlement don't you think? Did anyone step down just so that captain could get his seat? Probably not. And if not, why the 'eff should he have to step down just to help you? So many people seem to feel they're owed something. No one owes you anything. Ever. If you want that captains seat, get yourself there on your own merits just like he did.

Now hold on a second, I never said "the captain should step down so I can get his seat." I know I'm not owed anything, I never said or thought I was...you took what I said way out of context. I work hard and do everything I can to maximize my chances for success and hope that it pays off, but I am well aware that it might not. I'm not knocking on anyone's door saying "hey, you owe me a job!" My only point was that pilots working in the industry who are just there for the fun of it make it harder for others to advance who aren't there for the fun of it. Of course they have the right to be there, they've earned it, just as I hope to one day. But if this is something they are into as a hobby, it would be nice if they kept it that way rather than clogging up the professional side. In no way do I feel they owe me their position because they don't need it.

 

[MikeD]

I think a main point is this though - once you get to your specific seat in an airliner, who is anyone else to tell you what you can and can't do in your off hours? If I make my way to the left seat of a 777, but also have a more lucrative side business in some area...well, whose business is it but mine? It does not change the fact that I made it to the seat, nor does it change any material fact regarding my employment. The fact that people decide to do something besides fly means they are industrious, not detrimental. There is nothing keeping anyone else from starting a side business, nor is there a rule that you must - it is simply a personal choice. If you are a CFI that has to compete with part-timers - well, put out a better product and compete. If you are losing students to a part-timer there is a good chance that you would lose the student to a full-timer too. Don't focus on the peripheral issue - focus on why you lost that student. JetCareers is a for-profit business to the best of my knowledge. Whether it makes a profit or not is unknown to me, but it is a for-profit business and it certainly takes up much of Doug's time...but why shouldn't he be able to do this in his free time if he wants to? Is it ok if only marginal profits are made, but if he were making millions he would be honor bound to quit Southern Jets? I am not understanding the basic call for intrusion into other peoples lives or business. If you want to relax on days off - your call, good for you. Restore an antique airplane? Awesome. Sell real estate, run a commercial website, etc? Great, have fun.

This.

And remember too, if a guy above you has the seat he has at the airline, well, seniority does have its priviliges.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

My only point was that pilots working in the industry who are just there for the fun of it make it harder for others to advance who aren't there for the fun of it.

Everyone who is sitting in a pilot seat is making it just as hard for you to advance. Whether its a hobby for them or not, makes no difference. If you're gonna hate (or at least be annoyed) because there are too many ducks in the pond, then be annoyed by all of the ducks not just one group. Of course if you do that, then you'd also have to include yourself in the group you focus your angst on. And its tough for most people to do that without feeling like a hypocrite, so its easier to single out one group and choose to feel they should get out of your way.

Put another way, if you and everyone like you got the 'eff out of the industry, it would be far easier for a guy like me to fly as a secondary job. The shoe isn't so pleasant when its on the other foot is it? I don't fly as a primary or secondary job BTW, nor do I really want to at this point.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

If the captain is there helping better the industry, active w/ the union, and working towards better work rules then I have no problem w/ him being there and taking up a seat no matter his other income.

Ok so your beef is only with Captains who don't pound the pavement to to make the industry better? I'm sure there are lots of full time Captains who just phoning it in 'till retirement and could care less about working towards better work rules. So why single out just the ones who do it as a second job? In fact why single anyone out at all?

 

[drunkenbeagle]

But if this is something they are into as a hobby, it would be nice if they kept it that way rather than clogging up the professional side. In no way do I feel they owe me their position because they don't need it.

What's wrong with doing a job because you like it? Other people's personal finances are their business, not yours.

For what it is worth, I know some part-timer CFIs that are doctors and lawyers, and they are extremely good instructors. (Perhaps they know a bit from teaching law and medicine).

 

[jhugz]

Ok so your beef is only with Captains who don't pound the pavement to to make the industry better? I'm sure there are lots of full time Captains who just phoning it in 'till retirement and could care less about working towards better work rules. So why single out just the ones who do it as a second job? In fact why single anyone out at all?

Yeah...I'm really hoping Continental Captains are not one of them. If you are dead weight in the seat whether it be because of a second income, months from retirement, or who knows what it is a problem. Clear it up for ya?

 

[WacoFan]

Yeah...I'm really hoping Continental Captains are not one of them. If you are dead weight in the seat whether it be because of a second income, months from retirement, or who knows what it is a problem. Clear it up for ya?

They aren't dead weight if they are acting as PIC of the machine. You just seem pissy because they may or may not have the need for their salary. What about someone that inherits a lot of money - should they quit because they really don't need the job anymore? Don't fall too in love with the idea that people should simply accept your worldview, or that people should get out of your way if they have something you want but don't need it for the same reasons you do - you will end up very disappointed. This reminds me a little of the thread when Alex was questioning aviation as a career and another member started to lambaste him and other people he perceived to have an easier row to how than he did - it simply is irrelevant. The only thing that matter is YOU getting where you want, not what the people who already have achieved that are doing. Nobody owes you anything - maybe civility, but that's about it - other than that, unless you are willing to have others make life decisions for you don't expect others to acquiesce to your sense of justice.

 

[MikeD]

They aren't dead weight if they are acting as PIC of the machine. You just seem pissy because they may or may not have the need for their salary. What about someone that inherits a lot of money - should they quit because they really don't need the job anymore? Don't fall too in love with the idea that people should simply accept your worldview, or that people should get out of your way if they have something you want but don't need it for the same reasons you do - you will end up very disappointed. This reminds me a little of the thread when Alex was questioning aviation as a career and another member started to lambaste him and other people he perceived to have an easier row to how than he did - it simply is irrelevant. The only thing that matter is YOU getting where you want, not what the people who already have achieved that are doing. Nobody owes you anything - maybe civility, but that's about it - other than that, unless you are willing to have others make life decisions for you don't expect others to acquiesce to your sense of justice.

How many times do I have to remind people:

1. There are no guarantees.
2. Life isn't fair.
3. Timing is everything
4. Seniority has its privileges

That answers every concern with this subject.

 

[Zero1Niner]

I think a main point is this though - once you get to your specific seat in an airliner, who is anyone else to tell you what you can and can't do in your off hours? If I make my way to the left seat of a 777, but also have a more lucrative side business in some area...well, whose business is it but mine? It does not change the fact that I made it to the seat, nor does it change any material fact regarding my employment. The fact that people decide to do something besides fly means they are industrious, not detrimental. There is nothing keeping anyone else from starting a side business, nor is there a rule that you must - it is simply a personal choice. If you are a CFI that has to compete with part-timers - well, put out a better product and compete. If you are losing students to a part-timer there is a good chance that you would lose the student to a full-timer too. Don't focus on the peripheral issue - focus on why you lost that student. JetCareers is a for-profit business to the best of my knowledge. Whether it makes a profit or not is unknown to me, but it is a for-profit business and it certainly takes up much of Doug's time...but why shouldn't he be able to do this in his free time if he wants to? Is it ok if only marginal profits are made, but if he were making millions he would be honor bound to quit Southern Jets? I am not understanding the basic call for intrusion into other peoples lives or business. If you want to relax on days off - your call, good for you. Restore an antique airplane? Awesome. Sell real estate, run a commercial website, etc? Great, have fun.

They aren't dead weight if they are acting as PIC of the machine. You just seem pissy because they may or may not have the need for their salary. What about someone that inherits a lot of money - should they quit because they really don't need the job anymore? Don't fall too in love with the idea that people should simply accept your worldview, or that people should get out of your way if they have something you want but don't need it for the same reasons you do - you will end up very disappointed. This reminds me a little of the thread when Alex was questioning aviation as a career and another member started to lambaste him and other people he perceived to have an easier row to how than he did - it simply is irrelevant. The only thing that matter is YOU getting where you want, not what the people who already have achieved that are doing. Nobody owes you anything - maybe civility, but that's about it - other than that, unless you are willing to have others make life decisions for you don't expect others to acquiesce to your sense of justice.

+1!!!

Brilliantly said WacoFan!

I couldn't agree more with every word he wrote. Really well done sir!
:clap:

 

[Pietrantonio]

I had no idea this topic would take off the way it did. But it was a healthy discussion. I will pursue my goals, and I will achieve them because I have the desire to work hard to accomplish them. I don't feel like dead weight for pursing what I love to do just because I have another career in a different field. That's one heck of a label to place on someone who goes through the same process of flight training, time building, etc as any other pilot. If you want something, you have to work for it. It's as simple as that.
:beer:

 

[jhugz]

They aren't dead weight if they are acting as PIC of the machine. You just seem pissy because they may or may not have the need for their salary. What about someone that inherits a lot of money - should they quit because they really don't need the job anymore? Don't fall too in love with the idea that people should simply accept your worldview, or that people should get out of your way if they have something you want but don't need it for the same reasons you do - you will end up very disappointed. This reminds me a little of the thread when Alex was questioning aviation as a career and another member started to lambaste him and other people he perceived to have an easier row to how than he did - it simply is irrelevant. The only thing that matter is YOU getting where you want, not what the people who already have achieved that are doing. Nobody owes you anything - maybe civility, but that's about it - other than that, unless you are willing to have others make life decisions for you don't expect others to acquiesce to your sense of justice.

It has nothing to do w/ the amount of money they are collecting from a side job. My problem is no matter what your situation, if you sit in the seat for a hobby with no intentions of trying to better work rules, QoL, or pay because you don't need it then yes, you are dead weight.

 

[mrivc211]

A '121 gig' should be a career in itself and require no 'side job'.

If you're doing that well with things elsewhere, stop treating your 121 JOB as a HOBBY and QUIT.

An attitude like that just drags the rest of us down.

I'll respectfully have to disagree with you. There are more and more 121 pilots pursuing other avenues while they fly. Flying simply doesn't pay the bills anymore. The smart ones figure it out early and plan for it.

I know of doctors, lawyers, real estate agents, all working for places like Delta, Southwest, etc. I started my current business last year and I bid down to the minimum. Why would you fly full time and get burned out on it, when you can fly 9 days per month, and make a lot more money with your own business.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

It has nothing to do w/ the amount of money they are collecting from a side job. My problem is no matter what your situation, if you sit in the seat for a hobby with no intentions of trying to better work rules, QoL, or pay because you don't need it then yes, you are dead weight.

Well my only advice to you is you'd better get used to working with dead weight. Because I doubt anyone is going to quit just because you choose to perceive them as being dead weight.

You know I realized earlier today why this topic bugs me so much. Like I said in an earlier post, I really think the core of this issue is the fact there are too many ducks in the pond. If there were 50 available jobs for every qualified pilot, no one would gives a rats anus whether the guy sitting next to them was only doing it as a secondary thing.

So here's what bugs me about this. I think there are very very few professional aviators in the world today who can honestly say they had no earthly idea that they were choosing to go into a career field which had more qualified employees than available positions. You knew the pond was already full of ducks, and getting more full by the moment, when you jumped in. And now you want to complain because there's too many ducks in the pond. To me, that's no different from the person who builds or buys a house right next to an airport and then complains about the noise and wants the airport closed.

 

[WacoFan]

It has nothing to do w/ the amount of money they are collecting from a side job. My problem is no matter what your situation, if you sit in the seat for a hobby with no intentions of trying to better work rules, QoL, or pay because you don't need it then yes, you are dead weight.

What about someone that lives below their means and likes to hangout without getting involved in those things. Are they dead weight too, or only people of means that only do their job but nothing else? Liberals (and I am assuming you are over your joy over the health bill) are caring, compassionate people...as long as you live your life and order your priorities according to their (changeable) point of view. You are happy to wish people out of a seat (that you don't have yet) unless they get involved with union work, fight to make pay better, etc. That simply isn't how anything in life works. Do what you want...if your goal is to further to profession then that is your passion and you should do it. Just don't expect others to have the same passion, or perhaps they are already cynical. Point being, if I had $5 million in the bank and a side income stream of $250k per year on top of my flying salary...and I was one spot above you on the seniority list, you would still hit the street before me. That's just how it is - you know the rules getting in. It certainly does little good to focus on anyone except yourself and your own situation because it will not change. I would imagine that the first guy you ever tell to quit because he is "dead weight" and "doesn't need this for his primary living" will in fact leave the seniority list...but it will be because he dies laughing.

 

[MikeD]

Well my only advice to you is you'd better get used to working with dead weight. Because I doubt anyone is going to quit just because you choose to perceive them as being dead weight.

You know I realized earlier today why this topic bugs me so much. Like I said in an earlier post, I really think the core of this issue is the fact there are too many ducks in the pond. If there were 50 available jobs for every qualified pilot, no one would gives a rats anus whether the guy sitting next to them was only doing it as a secondary thing.

So here's what bugs me about this. I think there are very very few professional aviators in the world today who can honestly say they had no earthly idea that they were choosing to go into a career field which had more qualified employees than available positions. You knew the pond was already full of ducks, and getting more full by the moment, when you jumped in. And now you want to complain because there's too many ducks in the pond. To me, that's no different from the person who builds or buys a house right next to an airport and then complains about the noise and wants the airport closed.

Well stated.

Some of the most competent guys I've ever flown with, are guys who do it part time. Most of them have already "been there, done that" and have nothing to prove to anyone.

As I said, if they're there before you or me, then they have the privilige of seniority, and everything that comes with it.