Towered Operations in Class E

mojo6911 said:
Those 3 you mentioned are now class d, they just haven't updated the charts. They were Class G at the sfc to 700 AGL.
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Mojo beat me to it

I think the official effective date was January 15th, it'll be at least a couple of cycles before they have it on the chart.
 
Ok that's good to know and it explains allot, however, I still don't understand why a towered and fairly busy airport just outside of one of the busiest class B's in the country would have ever been designated as class G (not E thank you Roger). I would love to here any thoughts on this and especially about the weather reporting capabilities aspect, the METAR at KFWS shows it having an A3032?​

KFWS 161655Z 35011KT 20SM SKC 07/M05 A3032​
 
galvestonaggie said:
Ok that's good to know and it explains allot, however, I still don't understand why a towered and fairly busy airport just outside of one of the busiest class B's in the country would have ever been designated as class G (not E thank you Roger). I would love to here any thoughts on this and especially about the weather reporting capabilities aspect, the METAR at KFWS shows it having an A3032?​

KFWS 161655Z 35011KT 20SM SKC 07/M05 A3032​
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That is the Altimeter setting.

I actually preferred the Class G towered area. It allowed you to leave with lower ceilings and vis if you wanted to, and didn't have to request SVFR. As far as the service provided, there has been no change from Class G to Class D that I can tell, other than the higher weather minimums and SVFR stuff.
 
mojo6911 said:
That is the Altimeter setting.

I actually preferred the Class G towered area. It allowed you to leave with lower ceilings and vis if you wanted to, and didn't have to request SVFR. As far as the service provided, there has been no change from Class G to Class D that I can tell, other than the higher weather minimums and SVFR stuff.
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That is the Altimeter setting :banghead: Your right, it's still early in the morning : ). However the question still stands what is the weather reporting and how does it effect the airspace classification if at all?
 
This topic came up before:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/538652-post31.html

ASOS/AWOS doesn't matter - the tower needs a qualified weather observer to be Class D - the lack of such a person is normally why a tower is in Class G.
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http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air1702.html

17-2-10. WEATHER OBSERVATIONS AND REPORTING

a. Weather observations shall be taken at the primary airport during the times and dates the Class D airspace is active. A federally certified weather observer or a federally commissioned automated weather observing system (this includes all FAA and NWS approved and certified weather reporting systems) can take the weather observation. The weather observer shall take routine (hourly) and special observations. An automated weather observing system can provide continuous weather observations.

b. Scheduled record and special observations from weather observers or automated weather reporting systems shall be made available to the ATC facility(s) having control jurisdiction over the Class D designated surface area. This can be accomplished through Automated Flight Service Station/Flight Service Station (AFSS/FSS), Longline Dissemination, National Weather Service (NWS), or other FAA-approved sources. Facilities that require weather reports from satellite airports may enter into a letter of agreement (LOA) with the associated AFSS/FSS, airline/contract observer, airport management, etc.

NOTE-
1. At ATC sites where non-Federal employees perform weather duties, the appropriate FAA office shall ensure that the reporting and dissemination requirements applicable to National Weather Service and FAA publication standards are followed.

2. In facilities where direct access to automated weather observing systems is not available, controllers will apply the provisions of FAAO 7110.65, Air Traffic Control.
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Ok I'm catching what your throwing and it makes since, though I still have a few questions. 1. So can we now rule out the existence of towered operations in class E? 2. It was my understanding that class D airports with precision approaches became class E when tower operations closed? If this is correct than why does KFWS (which has an ILS) become class G, per the AFD, and not class E?

RGNL APP/DEP CON ​
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​
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135.975​

SPINKS TOWER ​
​
​
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124.625 (1400–0300Z‡) GND CON 119.475​

GCO ​
​
​
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121.725 (FORT WORTH CLNC and FLIGHT SERVICES)​

AIRSPACE: CLASS D svc 1400–0300Z‡ other times CLASS G.
​
 
Another question I can think of; if class D airspace goes to class G after the tower closes, does the class G extend all the way up to whatever the D extends to even though G only goes to 1,200 (in most cases)? What I think we have going on here is that a Congress for some reason gave KFWS the class D designation but not E for reasons beyond my understanding. Has anyone else seen this situation where a class D became a class G even with the presence of a precision approach? Also for all you controllers out there, how does radar separation and approaches work when a class D (in a congested piece of airspace) all of a sudden becomes class G?
 
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galvestonaggie said:
Ok I'm catching what your throwing and it makes since, though I still have a few questions. 1. So can we now rule out the existence of towered operations in class E? 2. It was my understanding that class D airports with precision approaches became class E when tower operations closed? If this is correct than why does KFWS (which has an ILS) become class G, per the AFD, and not class E?
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1. No. There could be, in theory, a towered class E surface area. I don't know of one off hand, but I don't see a reason why not.

2. It depends on the airspace markings around the airport. Since FWS has the shaded magenta around it, that designates it as Class G at the surface to 700AGL.

galvestonaggie said:
Another question I can think of; if class D airspace goes to class G after the tower closes, does the class G extend all the way up to whatever the D extends to even though G only goes to 1,200 (in most cases)? What I think we have going on here is that a Congress for some reason gave KFWS the class D designation but not E for reasons beyond my understanding. Has anyone else seen this situation where a class D became a class G even with the presence of a precision approach? Also for all you controllers out there, how does radar separation and approaches work when a class D (in a congested piece of airspace) all of a sudden becomes class G?
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The class G would only extend to whatever the markings around the airport say. It could be 700AGL, 1200AGL, or 145000MSL.
 
Mojo, you rock man. Even more informative!

As I recall at least FWS was a contract tower, with employees working for the city of Ft Worth. (Comment on skyvector.com) That would mean the two notes at the bottom of 17-2-10 may also apply to them, and sheds light on the fact that no ATIS is provided (AWOS only) due to the absence of a certified weather observer.

Interesting stuff! And an interesting loophole with the tower AND the Class G weather minimums.
 
inigo88 said:
Mojo, you rock man. Even more informative!

As I recall at least FWS was a contract tower, with employees working for the city of Ft Worth. (Comment on skyvector.com) That would mean the two notes at the bottom of 17-2-10 may also apply to them, and sheds light on the fact that no ATIS is provided (AWOS only) due to the absence of a certified weather observer.

Interesting stuff! And an interesting loophole with the tower AND the Class G weather minimums.
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I instruct out of GPM so this has been of great interest to me!

I've heard one of our tower guys say that he works several airports in the area. I forget which ones he said now, but FWS was one of them. There were maybe two or three other ones he listed as well.
 
Ok so I decided to call the FSDO in Dallas Ft. Worth on this as I'm still curious why KFWS goes to class G and not class E when the tower closes. According to him KFWS will go to class E in the event of IMC, otherwise it is class G when the tower is closed?? When asked about the reasoning behind this he really didn't have an answer other than to say it was an interesting point that needs clarification. On a sidebar I asked him why KFWS and the other large feeder airports in the DFW area had not been class D all along. Turns out this has been a source of contention between the local communities and Washington for quite some time, apparently Washington has been trying to limit the number of class D's in the US? Any thoughts on the Fed's motivation behind limiting class D expansion? You can still use contract controllers in class D can you not?

Also many thanks to MOJO for the great wealth of knowledge!
 
I think the reason it goes to Class E in IMC is to protect IFR traffic from people buzzing around in marginal VFR conditions. Not sure why it wouldn't be Class E in all weather conditions, though? That could be very confusing for a VFR pilot who takes off while it is Class G and then the weather forces it to Class E while the VFR pilot is up in the air and now he/she is SOL.

Just my $.02
 
galvestonaggie said:
Ok so I decided to call the FSDO in Dallas Ft. Worth on this as I'm still curious why KFWS goes to class G and not class E when the tower closes. According to him KFWS will go to class E in the event of IMC, otherwise it is class G when the tower is closed??
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That doesn't make any sense, and is generally why I never call the FSDO for this sort of clarification. Usually, they don't have the authority or capability to answer these things.

If you look at the markings at the airport, FWS is surrounded by the shaded magenta, which means from the surface to 700AGL, there is Class G airspace. The E only begins above 700AGL.
 
mojo6911 said:
If you look at the markings at the airport, FWS is surrounded by the shaded magenta, which means from the surface to 700AGL, there is Class G airspace. The E only begins above 700AGL.
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So in other words, a pilot on a daytime instrument approach would be more or less "protected" by being in "controlled" airspace with the higher Class E weather minimums (3SM/500/1000/2000) down to 700 AGL, and then have the last SFC-700 AGL to contend with people legally scud running in with the class G weather minimums (1 SM/clear of clouds), right?

My understanding was always that the interesting shapes you get with the shaded magenta, as well as the dashed magenta Class E airport surface areas (and extensions built onto Class D airspace) were all to protect various IAPs during IMC / M-VFR conditions. Is that somewhat accurate? :)
 
mojo6911 said:
Those 3 you mentioned are now class d, they just haven't updated the charts. They were Class G at the sfc to 700 AGL.
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What he said. I have had the privilege to fly out of all 3 of those airports at some point. I did almost all of my training out of FWS... great times!
 
inigo88 said:
So in other words, a pilot on a daytime instrument approach would be more or less "protected" by being in "controlled" airspace with the higher Class E weather minimums (3SM/500/1000/2000) down to 700 AGL, and then have the last SFC-700 AGL to contend with people legally scud running in with the class G weather minimums (1 SM/clear of clouds), right?
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In general, yes.

In the case of FWS, the tower and Class D operate during the day and shut down at night, so it will be Class D mins during the day, and at night, the Class G and Class E (below 10,000MSL) VFR weather minimums will be the same, however it is still a Class G surface airport, regardless of the weather conditions. The information galvestonaggie received doesn't make a lot of sense.


inigo88 said:
My understanding was always that the interesting shapes you get with the shaded magenta, as well as the dashed magenta Class E airport surface areas (and extensions built onto Class D airspace) were all to protect various IAPs during IMC / M-VFR conditions. Is that somewhat accurate? :)
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That is my understanding, as well.
 
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