Reporting an Employer to ICE?

I think this idea would be more of a publicity deal for ICE. They would take on the case IF it would provide more publicity in that they saved many American households from a licensed terrorist flying over their home.

Kind of like taking your case to a small claims court. Little fee, low publicity and not very high rankings. High publicity, then the greedy lawyers will divulge their interest for the matter.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Ok, riddle me this.

You're playing high stakes poker, Rolando goes "all in" and wins the stash.

Rolando overstayed his student visa and is a Peruvian national.

Is that compelling enough for ICE/BP? :)
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Your posts always make my head hurt. What, with the ebb and flow and all...
 
If the students are here on a J visa, then it's very much legal for them to work as CFIs.

Generally speaking, if you are here on a J stduent visa, you can accept employment so long as you meet the following criteria:

1) It's part time
2) You're working for the University/school that sponsored your visa
3) The job is related to your field of study.

This was VERY common at my previous flight school/employer.

When I first came to the U.S., it was under an L2 visa (minor under 21 accompanying my dad who had an L1 work visa). I came across a perfect job oppurtunity....working part time behind the desk at my flight school. However, I couldn't take the job....since I was on an L2, ANY employment was prohibited. Had I been on a J (student) visa, I would have been good to go. Of course, being on an L visa gave me more of a "fast track" towards getting a green card, which came within several months, and the problem was solved!
 
The M1 visas (the type many flight schools and flight school unis use) you can work 1 month for every 4 months of schooling, it's designed so that after a 4 year degree you can work in the workplace (and therefore learn more) for 1 year. It's called "Optional Practice Training."

The F1 visa, the normal "student visa" are harder for flight schools to get for students, if they can at all since a flight school is considered a vocational school. But if they have F1 visas they can work part-time at the school that issued it for up to 20 hours a week.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
The M1 visas (the type many flight schools and flight school unis use) you can work 1 month for every 4 months of schooling, it's designed so that after a 4 year degree you can work in the workplace (and therefore learn more) for 1 year. It's called "Optional Practice Training."

The F1 visa, the normal "student visa" are harder for flight schools to get for students, if they can at all since a flight school is considered a vocational school. But if they have F1 visas they can work part-time at the school that issued it for up to 20 hours a week.
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Good stuff.....just out of curiosity Spira, were you a foreign student?

I should have put a disclaimer in my post....I'm not all that up to speed on the current rules and such that govern international students. I used to be pretty damned sharp on this stuff 10-12 years ago, but these things change and maybe I don't know what I didn't know back then (if that makes any sense). But I think the general consensus here amongst those at least somewhat in the know is that being a johnny foreigner doesn't necessarily prohibit employment here....even on a non-immigrant visa.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Jhugz...
 
Sometimes you just have to do the right thing. Sure people will say tell you its not your fight and you're just inviting trouble but if everyone walked away from every fight then the bad guys always win.

Its your call whats right..but I think what the school is doing is a clear case of whats wrong. Hiring illegal workers is very pervasive. Not only is it just wrong/illegal, as mentioned it devlues legal workers, obviously theres no taxes being paid and they aren't getting and benefits. If one of them gets hurt on the job will they just load him up in a truck in the middle of the night and dump out on a long lonely stretch of desert highway? And the FAA surely has a record of who holds a CFI..but I can almost guarantee they aren't in teh business of checking to see who is legal to work..the lack of agency crosstalk has been and still is a huge gap.

Revenge is a dish best served cold but sometimes its better to watch them eat it by the light if thier house on fire. It could be anyone reporting it and now that your gone they may suspect but they could point the finger in a million directions. It can't be 100% foreign students associated with the school.
 
And F1 visas aren't for vocation schools..that would be the M1 which doesn't allow for employment. And the J-1 visa (cultural exchange) will have "flight training" removed as an option later this year :clap:

"Unauthorized workers employed at sensitive sites and critical infrastructure facilities—such as airports, seaports, nuclear plants, chemical plants and defense facilities—pose serious homeland security threats." Granted you weren't at Concourse A SFO..but as an employee whats to say they don't have increased access to areas that would arouse suspicion if they were a student?
 
If you don't know what kind of Visa they have your wasting your time and whoever answers the phone at ICE!!

Most Flight Schools use J visas, and they allow for practical experience in the field that the student trained in. The visa is generally good for two years, and it can be extended but very rarely (almost never) is.

Most Schools aren't going to risk losing the ability to bring foreign students to their school by allowing them to overstay.

We have many foreign CFIs here at aviator, a couple of them have gone home recently because their visa expired.
 
Actually there are, I think, 6 flight schools which used to be able to sponsor J visas. As of December no more J visas can be issued for flight school students, although students have some considerable time to use what they have. Most flight schools sponsor M visas.

M and F visas both have provisions for students to work for a period of time, and given how much money they have brought into the country (including that spent on employing their own instructor), I don't think we can really begrudge them a few hours of work.
 
chrisdahut1 said:
Good stuff.....just out of curiosity Spira, were you a foreign student?

I should have put a disclaimer in my post....I'm not all that up to speed on the current rules and such that govern international students. I used to be pretty damned sharp on this stuff 10-12 years ago, but these things change and maybe I don't know what I didn't know back then (if that makes any sense). But I think the general consensus here amongst those at least somewhat in the know is that being a johnny foreigner doesn't necessarily prohibit employment here....even on a non-immigrant visa.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Jhugz...
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No, but my roommate was. He got hired at Mesa on an M1 visa. He told them 'Hey, I only got 8 more months, unless you guys sponsor me for a work visa.' up front too.
 
jhugz said:
The company brings in people from out of country on a student visa and has them work at the school as CFI's. Obviously since it is a student visa they are not eligible to be working in the US. So the company pays them under the table just for room and board. I was really upset about this when I was working there but just let it go because if I reported them they would know it was me and then terminate me.

Anywhoo am I being just in reporting this to the ICE (immigration and customs enforcement) or is this something I'm doing just in spite of my firing? I'm still p'ed off and want payback but this is so bad for the industry. Absolutely disgusting...

Opinions...
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1. Some visas legally allow students to work in their field as such as CFI for a time after graduation. I know some personally that have done this.

2. If they are paying under the table and are not paying SS or withholding, w-2 etc, and they do not meet the standard for independent contractor, they are breaking the law. This happens a lot in this industry. Not sure those working on the student visa, but if they do it with US instructors they could be in a problem. Sometimes the whistleblower gets an award...

3. Decide what type of person you want to be. Your motivation is key here, if you are doing it to be vindictive, then my advice is to get over it. You reap what you sow (Judeo-Christian ), what comes around goes around (secular) and although I'm not into eastern religion, the word Karma probably come into play. If they are scofflaws, then do your research and report them with no rancor in your heart. Peace:)
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Have you established that they are, in fact, doing anything illegal?
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Well, if they're paying people under the table, they likely aren't paying taxes on the wages they're paying. So they're screwing you, me, and anyone else whose employer pays FICA like they're supposed to.

That would be illegal. And getting the IRS involved would a worse punishment than getting ICE involved. If the IRS suspects something shady is going on, then the company's going to have a lot of explaining -- and likely paying -- to do.
 
jhugz said:
So as many of you may know I was fired w/ out cause from my last job. Mostly it was due to me not working for free and standing up for myself when I was pushed to sign stuff off I didn't want to. Anywhoo I got to thinking last night about an incredibly ugly case of how this company tries to cut all corners and it aggravated me all through my shift.

The company brings in people from out of country on a student visa and has them work at the school as CFI's. Obviously since it is a student visa they are not eligible to be working in the US. So the company pays them under the table just for room and board. I was really upset about this when I was working there but just let it go because if I reported them they would know it was me and then terminate me.

Anywhoo am I being just in reporting this to the ICE (immigration and customs enforcement) or is this something I'm doing just in spite of my firing? I'm still p'ed off and want payback but this is so bad for the industry. Absolutely disgusting...

Opinions...
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As mentioned previously if you have concrete examples to provide, more may be done and in a more thunderous manner if the IRS and FAA became involved because of the highlighted reasons above ... and then any Visa issue may be a minor footnote.
 
Windchill said:
As mentioned previously if you have concrete examples to provide, more may be done and in a more thunderous manner if the IRS and FAA became involved because of the highlighted reasons above ... and then any Visa issue may be a minor footnote.
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Also gonna add, some foreign aviation governing bodies require an ATP to hold an airline spot. The cfi is a means to finish the training required, and is allowed by many of the student visa's.

You had better be darn sure about all your info before you turn this in, or you may just end up hurting the cfi's who are doing their job legally.

Didn't you have a thread on here a while back complaining about getting in trouble for landing at airports not on the op specs? And then again for getting fired after dammaging the deice unit? It really just stinks of revenge, that's all. You would be best served to expend your energy on securing employment. What has happened, happened. This is not going to change that, and it won't get rid of any of the emotions involved.

Just walk away.
 
My opinion is to let it go.

If you didnt stand up for it while you were employed, then it must of not been the "right thing to do" at the moment.

You mentioned you were fired because you stood up for yourself, so you were willing to have integrity when the situation was directly on you, but wouldnt when it wasnt concerning you personally? Integrity is one of the things you need to have, even when NO ONE is looking.

On top of all that, ICE probably wont care what you have to say, since you hadnt reported it when you were employed there. They have such limited resources that unless they can DIRECTLY (and sometimes not even then) get a good hook and shut some sort of operation down, they wont pursue it.

Just move on, bad karma will exist for the owner later. At this point, you need to focus on yourself, and spend less time focusing on them.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Also gonna add, some foreign aviation governing bodies require an ATP to hold an airline spot. The cfi is a means to finish the training required, and is allowed by many of the student visa's.

You had better be darn sure about all your info before you turn this in, or you may just end up hurting the cfi's who are doing their job legally.

Didn't you have a thread on here a while back complaining about getting in trouble for landing at airports not on the op specs? And then again for getting fired after dammaging the deice unit? It really just stinks of revenge, that's all. You would be best served to expend your energy on securing employment. What has happened, happened. This is not going to change that, and it won't get rid of any of the emotions involved.

Just walk away.
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Bigey said:
My opinion is to let it go.

If you didnt stand up for it while you were employed, then it must of not been the "right thing to do" at the moment.

You mentioned you were fired because you stood up for yourself, so you were willing to have integrity when the situation was directly on you, but wouldnt when it wasnt concerning you personally? Integrity is one of the things you need to have, even when NO ONE is looking.

On top of all that, ICE probably wont care what you have to say, since you hadnt reported it when you were employed there. They have such limited resources that unless they can DIRECTLY (and sometimes not even then) get a good hook and shut some sort of operation down, they wont pursue it.

Just move on, bad karma will exist for the owner later. At this point, you need to focus on yourself, and spend less time focusing on them.
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:yeahthat:

Excellent posts!!
 
TXaviator

have you an idea how many americans work outside the US?

Most flight schools in the US by now would not even exist if no foreign pilots would come to the US for training (go to any big academy and count how many americans students are training there), does this not support american GA? does this not support jobs for american CFIs? How many CFI on a Visa you think are working in the US in % to green card holders and americans (really few trust me, I was one of them)?

I agree that you have to work legally, M1, F1, J1 they all allow you to work, not all of them allow compensation for it!

I come from a country where our doors are open to everybody willing to move there, work hard and legally! It's really easy for an US citizen to go to my country and work, for me to go to the US and get a green card.....almost impossible, you think thius is fair?

You think it's fair that a US company, based in Europe, pays their pilots 3 times more then in the US and they are all from europe. is that fair?

In an other thread you said you are planning to move to Miami, well if you have this attitude than I think it's not your place

The United States are an amazing, they are what they are thanks to foreign immigration.......

Have you ever travelled in the carribean reagion, there is a lot of local pilots unemployed beacuse most jobs are taken from more qualified pilots from the US (there is a lot of them), Canada and Europe, what should they say??






 
Swisspilot,

Speaking from experience, every country in Europe is about 4 times more difficult to either get a work visa or to start the actual immigration process, maybe even 6 times as difficult for Americans.
 
Swisspilot: Think maybe you've confused the hype for the truth. According to the US Consulate, there were an estimated 12,113 US Private Citizens living in Switzerland in 1999. According to the Swiss government website, 71,984 Swiss citizens lived in the US in 2007. When you consider the respective populations of the countries, your argument seems...fanciful.

Further, from the Swiss government website:

From other countries (so-called Third States) only skilled labour needed by Switzerland is admitted.
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There is no open door policy for non-EU member states whatsoever, and in point of fact, it is extremely difficult to be sponsored as a US citizen, as it is in all of Western Europe.

The simple fact of the matter is that the EU does a much better job of protecting its jobs than the US does. This has both positive and negative effects for the broader economy and society, but it's pretty hard to argue that the US foreign work system does native pilots any favors relative to European pilots.
 
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