jrh
Well-Known Member
Don't worry, that only happens in a 4g negative dive, and I'm really careful not to do those.
Confidence building experiences *after* training
- Thread starter jrh
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Don't worry, that only happens in a 4g negative dive, and I'm really careful not to do those.
PA44-LUV
Well-Known Member
I wish I had seen a thread like this after I got my private. On my first solo cross country, I got lost, yelled at by ATC because I missed their radio call, raked over the coals after I landed (or at least it felt like it at the time), and then lectured again when I took off an hour later. I was already low on confidence to begin with, and that did a number, to where I almost quit training over it.
When I moved to San Fran a year and a half later, I took one look at the sectional and spazzed. I didn't fly for 6 months, but got the flying bug and got checked out and forced myself to go on a cross-country. The lack of confidence was so bad that was the ONLY route I flew. By the time I decided to go for the IR, I had the required x-ctry time, all on this one route. I ended up going to a few other places, but the examiner wasn't pleased, to say the least.
Deep down I knew other people must struggle with this too, but to see others examples is comforting in a way. It's been nearly 3 years since then and I've obviously outgrown my fear, but there's always that "wishing I could have done it differently" feeling.
When I moved to San Fran a year and a half later, I took one look at the sectional and spazzed. I didn't fly for 6 months, but got the flying bug and got checked out and forced myself to go on a cross-country. The lack of confidence was so bad that was the ONLY route I flew. By the time I decided to go for the IR, I had the required x-ctry time, all on this one route. I ended up going to a few other places, but the examiner wasn't pleased, to say the least.
Deep down I knew other people must struggle with this too, but to see others examples is comforting in a way. It's been nearly 3 years since then and I've obviously outgrown my fear, but there's always that "wishing I could have done it differently" feeling.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Heck, X-countries never bothered me a bit. Going to & coming back from the practice area has never been anywhere near the top of my favorites list, though. Practice areas are usually busy with traffic. I've only had a few X-country flights where I saw even one other airplane, though- maybe only a couple where I saw more than one other airplane.
The problem isn't with reciting PARE, but with doing something suddenly that the instructor doesn't expect the student to do. Such as:
* Student locks up their legs and shoots in the power then tries to turn out of the spin. It won't enter a flat spin, 99.99 percent of the time. But improperly loaded, oops.
* Too quick of forward application of elevator, big whoops because now your inverted.
* Over application of rudder without releasing, locking up arms, elevator and you get a secondary and much more pronounced spin in the other direction.
The list goes on. Until someone has practiced and recovered from these and about 10 other misapplications of controls, at least a few times each, I don't think they should do spin training. For private or CFI.
Demonstrations, sure they can do that because they know how to get in and out of them. Allowing the student to perform them is another story, just IMO of course.
One last thing, consider the things students do wrong on landings, takeoffs, or other phases of flight. How many times in your early CFI career did a student do something that you just scratched your head and questioned why? Apply that to spins.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
This is a great thread. One of the best I've read in a long time.
One thing I've noticed...
My instructor treated EVERYTHING as routine. Going to another airport, getting lost, stalls...everything. It was all just routine stuff you had to know. So that when I found myself out there, by myself, my thought was, "yeah, you did this with Larry."
It's sorta like having kids. When they're little, if you don't make a big deal out of something, neither will they.
It also inspires me to get more instruction.
One thing I've noticed...
My instructor treated EVERYTHING as routine. Going to another airport, getting lost, stalls...everything. It was all just routine stuff you had to know. So that when I found myself out there, by myself, my thought was, "yeah, you did this with Larry."
It's sorta like having kids. When they're little, if you don't make a big deal out of something, neither will they.
It also inspires me to get more instruction.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying, but I still disagree.
I've done a lot of spin training with all different levels of pilots, and I've never come close to any of the situations you listed. I can't imagine how bad a person would have to screw up to get a Cessna into an inverted spin. I've had students lock on the controls before, but nothing raising my voice couldn't break through.
I put spins on the same level as teaching a person to land. Yeah, you have to be alert, yeah, you have to be ready to take over, but it's not rocket science, either.
Do them at a safe altitude (I usually enter them at 5500 AGL), be ready to loudly announce, "I have the controls" and it's pretty safe.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. No big deal. I was with you till reading a few accident reports with spins from instructors, most with low time in spin training. It is a shame to read an instructor spin in from 4,500 feet with a student.
The inverted is easier than you might think. Hold the aircraft rudder in place and apply full forward pressure. Think of it as an O'... response where a person shoves their hands forward to brace themselves while still holding the controls.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
And top it all off by running over-square!
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Ehh, I did a scad of spins during my flight training, I mean lots and lots of em. As an instructor, its nothing a quick judo chop to the neck couldn't fix if the student locked up, also, I don't think you could push forward enough elevator quick enough in most light training machines to end up inverted, then even if you were inverted, it wouldn't take too much to get out of being inverted if you had the altitude (airspeed and g loading being the only real limiting factors on survival, though the airplane would definitely have to go into the shop after the inverted event). I don't really see how any of those things could really happen in a realistic world. In 172s, I don't think I did much higher rate of descent than 700fpm until I exited the spin, then naturally, I had my dive as I came out of it.
#3 I know can happen, I have tested it.
#2 I didn't test to inverted, but I have pushed forward to see the snappiness of the tail and have no doubt that the control throw is there to do it. Next time you spin, keep the rudder in and let the elevator go an inch or so past neutral, be ready for a surprise. Try it in the incipient and developed phase and have another instructor onboard for proper cg loading typical with a student.
FWIW inverted entry, from upright, is tricky because the unknowing pilot will apply opposite rudder. Well, they just made it worse. A spin to the right, flipped inverted will require left rudder. Not to mention the crappy belts won't keep you from banging your head, hard.
#1...as I said before it isn't likely. Power is too low and CG is often too far forward in trainers, but with certain loadings I wouldn't 100 percent rule it out.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I don't doubt that everything you're talking about is *possible*. I'm sure there's a chance of it happening.
To me, the bigger question is, "What's the likelihood?" As I said, I've done a lot of spins and given a lot of spin training, and never come close. Also, none of my CFI friends have gotten in to such a situation. Nor have I even read about it on the internet, or heard rumors of it in a pilot lounge, until this thread here.
Now, I know just because I haven't heard of a bad thing happening doesn't mean something is safe. But it does make me wonder about the odds. I don't know if it's the forgiving design of Cessnas, or skill of flight instructors, or low chances of a student applying an extreme control input...or probably a little of everything...but that's why I feel safe letting a low time CFI teach spins.
I did a quick search this morning through the ASF's stall/spin report, as well as a Google search for reports on instructional spin accidents, and couldn't find much. Do you happen to have any accident reports of a student/CFI spinning in because of the errors you described?
The closest thing I found was the story of a 100 pound female CFI being overpowered by a 230 pound male student who froze on the controls during his first spin. But I see that as more of a problem with the student/CFI pairing, rather than a problem specific to teaching spins. They could have just as easily crashed on landing if he'd locked up and overpowered her on short final in the pattern.
Nothing specific. I have read two or three accidents with spins while instructing, but they are inconclusive. I think I have seen the one you mentioned.
I don't think these happen often, my worry is that if they did could the instructor get out of it. With a landing/takeoff I am confident most any instructor can get out of anything a student will get them into. Spins are another story, IMO.
I will dig around later today and see if I can locate the accident reports I read, this was 4 years ago now. I was looking through the NTSB database after a discussion in flight safety about spin training.
Update: I found the one you referenced. The few others I have read have no definitive reasoning. I have been at the hospital all day, like I am everyday with mom in ICU, so I haven't gotten to search for my class notes.
Anyways, you might find this interesting: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC03FA082&rpt=fi
Just the fact that he went inverted from a normal power on stall, I found it intriguing. Of course that is from a ground witness most likely.
If I find anything else I will post it.
Anyways, you might find this interesting: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC03FA082&rpt=fi
Just the fact that he went inverted from a normal power on stall, I found it intriguing. Of course that is from a ground witness most likely.
If I find anything else I will post it.
I have. In a T-37........still a Cessna
But that jet isn't like most straight-wing Cessna's, it does what only what you tell it to do....right or wrong; or it'll do nothing if you tell it to do nothing in a spin; and it enjoys spinning in an eerily flat attitude. If you don't follow the correct spin recovery to a T, there are numerous Warnings and Cautions in the flight manual letting you know that recovery otherwise may not be possible. Many Tweets have been lost in spin accidents due to recovery procedures that were in correct, or that were correct but weren't timely or deliberate.
To this day, I still remember the specific 6 step spin recovery boldface procedure (all 43 words), since it was drilled into us seven ways from Sunday:
Throttles – Idle
Rudder and Ailerons – Neutral
Stick – Abruptly full aft and hold
Rudder – Abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction (opposite turn needle) and hold
Stick- Abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder
Controls- Neutral after spinning stops and recover from dive