Line up and wait

SteveC said:
I've heard that ICAO is pushing for violations and maybe even revocations for using the phrase "...any traffic please advise".
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It's being changed per the AIM to "traffic in the area, advise intentions", in order to comply with ICAO.








;)
 
Yank&BankmyRJ145 said:
If you hate "Line up and Wait" you are going to hate when they change your landing clearance. ICAO you can only have one airplane with a landing clearance at a time, the rest get "Continue". The FAA wants to move to this also!
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Thank you for that wonderful little bit of news for a saturday morning..LOL..I really wouldnt care about that anyway..but ""As filed"_Only use during a clearance on the ground. Apparently you've never flown in the NE before because NY Center says that all the time.
 
Chief Captain said:
Right. Because a pilot is likely to taxi a mile down the runway beyond the threshold since it's unclear as to where he should stop for the takeoff clearance.:clap:



Think about that statement. There are "n" ICAO compliant states, and everybody else should change policy to reflect the way one non-compliant state does it.
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To address the first part of the question, I understand what it means, but the language does not specify a specific point on the airport...as I said before, we are always taught to use as concise and clear language as possible, a defined position is more clear than just line up....any CFI that has told their student to "pull back on the yoke a little bit" can probably tell you they never did that again

To address the second part.....if everybody else was jumping off a cliff, would you?


I do think we're splitting hairs though, in all reality, it's not gonna change anything....I'm just pointing out that it isn't necessarily better than what we use, and in an industry where we try to use the safest practices, it seems weird to me that we're switching to something that is less clear.....but like I said, in all reality, it's not gonna change anything except what I read back to the controller when given a "line up and wait" instruction
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Thank you for that wonderful little bit of news for a saturday morning..LOL..I really wouldnt care about that anyway..but ""As filed"_Only use during a clearance on the ground. Apparently you've never flown in the NE before because NY Center says that all the time.
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What I usually get in the NE: Brand X 123 ready to copy full route. So much fun. I would love to have PDC...
 
pilotmg1501 said:
To address the first part of the question, I understand what it means, but the language does not specify a specific point on the airport...as I said before, we are always taught to use as concise and clear language as possible, a defined position is more clear than just line up....any CFI that has told their student to "pull back on the yoke a little bit" can probably tell you they never did that again
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First:
How is position and hold any more "clear and concise" or more "well defined"? Line up and wait has just as much "ambiguity" as position and hold. It literally means line up on the friggin runway, don't go any further than you have to to make the turn and align yourself with the centerline, and wait for takeoff clearance.

Second:
I've never had an instructor say "please put 4.3 lbs of aft stick pressure on the yoke". It's always "a little more...a little more...hold it right there." I used the latter phrase time and time again, and it always got the job done.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
First:
How is position and hold any more "clear and concise" or more "well defined"? Line up and wait has just as much "ambiguity" as position and hold. It literally means line up on the friggin runway, don't go any further than you have to to make the turn and align yourself with the centerline, and wait for takeoff clearance.
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Exactly. Position and hold, where? Is there a defined spot on the runway to hold? Or do you just taxi onto the runway and stop? Line up and wait is the same thing. Go out on the runway, line up on the centerline and stop.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I agree with the above poster. I see no problem with this. Why not align ourselves with ICAO phraseology? I personally think most US pilots' phraseology is horrible. Too much "cool pilot speak" going on out there, when we should just be using clear, concise, appropriate phraseology.

I'm definitely not a robot on the radio, but I do try to make my transmissions as clear as possible. Especially in Canada and Mexico, where the controller may not have English as a first language. I've never had problems communicating with controllers outside the US...

Be happy we weren't all forced to learn a second language to be a pilot, as every other airline not based in an English-speaking country was made to do. Could you imagine having to take French/German/Mandarin Chinese (gasp!!) in addition to your aviation courses?
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I agree. What is the difference. It seems to me that people are just resisting the change rather than wanting to improve the system.

One of the things that really gets me is how bad most of my FO's are with the radios. Please, use standard phraseology and keep it simple.
 
///AMG said:
Wait so now folks can't sound cool and say "pos and hold"? Sad :p
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Seriously?

The article does say "could soon implement". I'm glad to see they are on top of changing some phrasing, instead of focusing on a much needed adjustment in duty regs...
 
Ophir said:
I agree. What is the difference. It seems to me that people are just resisting the change rather than wanting to improve the system.

One of the things that really gets me is how bad most of my FO's are with the radios. Please, use standard phraseology and keep it simple.
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One thing that gets me is how bad some of our CA's are with the radios. :D

Stuff like " [ airline name ]<company> 12 - 34 checking in 19 for 25." Ahhhhhhh!!!! Freakin' a man, freakin' a!</company>
 
cencal83406 said:
One thing that gets me is how bad some of our CA's are with the radios. :D

Stuff like " [ airline name ]<company> 12 - 34 checking in 19 for 25." Ahhhhhhh!!!! Freakin' a man, freakin' a!</company>
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Yup, you are right. In fact I was in the jumpseat with a former administrative pilot and his calls were horrible.

The bottom line is that professionalism and safety, our two pillars, extend to the radio too, and adapting to changes that come along.
 
Ophir said:
Yup, you are right. In fact I was in the jumpseat with a former administrative pilot and his calls were horrible.

The bottom line is that professionalism and safety, our two pillars, extend to the radio too, and adapting to changes that come along.
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I might think differently once I get to your seat, but from my viewpoint, I would be more tolerant of "flustered" radio calls than poor technique. Anyone can get flustered. Heck, a couple of days ago going into SAT, the approach controller was so behind he was neglecting to issue approach clearances to at least 4 aircraft before asking them to switch to tower.

Anyone willing to act like a professional can learn like a professional and be brought up to speed. Those who want to cut corners.... will always do so.
 
Ophir said:
I agree. What is the difference. It seems to me that people are just resisting the change rather than wanting to improve the system.
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I might have missed it, but has there been an accident where the cause was a foreign pilot who didn't understand "position and hold"? If you can fly a heavy over the ocean, you should be able to understand those words.

I don't think it's improving the system, and I think resistance to change is not the negative thing you make it out to be. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
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