Line up and wait

Boris Badenov said:
I do find it amusing that adopting punctilious, stick-up-keister ICAO phraseology will save the world from all the accidents that aren't happening here, but requiring a legitimate, working knowledge of the English language would be an unfair burden on foreign employers, what with their sterling safety records and whatnot.
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Firebird2XC said:
I'm a fan of "Position and hold" because of the correlation to other uses.

"Traffic holding in position downfield..." during a runway crossing clearance tells you exactly what you know based on being previously told to 'position and hold'.

"Taxi via Alpha, Bravo, hold short runway 35" tells you to STOP short of something, as in STOP MOVING. "Wait," is somewhat vague.. almost an indefinite modifier.

"Line up and wait," has no other real reference other than the actual event at hand.

Position and hold references other ideas in use on the airport surface. I think it makes for better communication.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly...hold is a standard term used across all aspects of ground movement (or really lack thereof...)

Line up and wait is what you do before before you even get up to the line...Position references a specific point on the runway, as in, "take up your starting position at the end of the runway, where as line up only references that you are to align yourself with the centerline, that leaves to interpretation where they stop on along the length of the runway, it also, as previously stated de-simplifies the proper radio terminology, and one of the goals of having standard RT (apart from just the fact that it's standard), was to simplify it to help avoid confusion.

All that being said, I don't think that we should switch to what ICAO says, they should switch to our system, but honestly, any competent pilot should be able to understand what "line up and wait" means and act accordingly.
 
I wonder if this is the results from that whole hooker thing down in Atlanta. Ya know, droppin a "line up and wait" has many uses vs PAH.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Um. How about the WAIT part?
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But if I don't know where to wait?????.....all I know is that I have to be aligned with the centerline....

The wait only refers the fact that after I have completed the task (which still isn't clear because I don't know exactly where I should be) I need to stay there until I receive further instructions....

It's like saying, "fly that way" or "add a little bit of power" or "pull back on the yoke" to your students as a CFI....we learn in our CFI training (and I'm sure every CFI has experienced firsthand) that you need to have very specific instructions that don't leave room for student interpretation.

All this being said, if and when the change comes, I'll change and move on and not complain (well, I might complain), but I don't understand why we are moving from specific terminology to something with more room to interpretation...especially when being specific in our words and actions is engrained into us from day 1.

I agree, though, that more emphasis should be put on an actual UNDERSTANDING and application of the english language (as it pertains to aviation)...move up the levels of learning from rote memorization of phrases to the understanding and application levels...
 
pilotmg1501 said:
But if I don't know where to wait?????.....all I know is that I have to be aligned with the centerline....

The wait only refers the fact that after I have completed the task (which still isn't clear because I don't know exactly where I should be) I need to stay there until I receive further instructions....
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Position and hold. Hold where? I could hold on the piano keys, the numbers, the 1000' markers, abeam taxiway C which is 3000' down the runway. Holding is also something I do over Red Table when I'm waiting my turn to get into Aspen.

If this is all that difficult for people to comprehend, maybe they should take up a job in a cubicle.
 
"Line Up and Wait" needs to be said in a British accent. As in, "Line up and wait, eh chaps?"
 
I've heard that ICAO is pushing for violations and maybe even revocations for using the phrase "...any traffic please advise".
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Why not just allow controllers to utilize both. I.e. a TWR controller is speaking to the pilot of a foreign heavy headed back to whatever hell hole he came from in the first place. "Air India 234, line up and wait, R/W 23." Next up we have an RJ headed to Dubuque..."Position and hold R/W 23."...just like that. I mean we already have precedent set in current ATC/pilot communications for multiple phrases to say the same thing such as a controller telling a pilot to fly to a fix/VOR then:

"As filed"_Only use during a clearance on the ground
"Flight plan route"_A lot of controllers still use this, but not wise bc which Flight Plan. Yours or the flight route Clearance gave u???? A crash happen bc of this phase
"Resume own navigation"...- yes, or resume the departure/arrival

Using both won't make the wheels of airline safety stop spinning. So why should we change it vs using it as an alternative phrase just because Foo Man Chu flyin a triple 7 out of Bangkok can't grasp.."Position and Hold!"
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If you hate "Line up and Wait" you are going to hate when they change your landing clearance. ICAO you can only have one airplane with a landing clearance at a time, the rest get "Continue". The FAA wants to move to this also!
 
Cptnchia said:
Why? As a pilot who flies international, you should be appreciating how those two allow a more efficient use of airspace. And can you really argue against RNAV(RNP) approaches?
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TFaudree go it right.

I understand your confusion though.

In my mind, if you are operating out in the world, and we fly RNP safely, RNAV safely and those are world standards, then why not do what everyone else does?

If the phrase "Line UP" or "Line up and wait" work well at international hubs with the vast majority of pilots who have english as a second language, I don't see why it's such a big deal.

My official position: I don't care. I barely am capable of tying my shoes, yet when I switch back and forth between "Position and Hold" and "Line up", I've never had an issue.
 
pilotmg1501 said:
where as line up only references that you are to align yourself with the centerline, that leaves to interpretation where they stop on along the length of the runway
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Right. Because a pilot is likely to taxi a mile down the runway beyond the threshold since it's unclear as to where he should stop for the takeoff clearance.:clap:

pilotmg1501 said:
All that being said, I don't think that we should switch to what ICAO says, they should switch to our system,
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Think about that statement. There are "n" ICAO compliant states, and everybody else should change policy to reflect the way one non-compliant state does it.
 
Yank&BankmyRJ145 said:
If you hate "Line up and Wait" you are going to hate when they change your landing clearance. ICAO you can only have one airplane with a landing clearance at a time, the rest get "Continue". The FAA wants to move to this also!
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That would be a good thing, no? When I hear "cleared to land", it would be nice to know that the runway is clear. The pucker factor is high when I hear "cleared to land, number 4".

That said, I don't mind keeping it if we restrict it to "cleared to land, number 2". It's one of the stranger things the FAA does (with the possible exception of LAHSO) that seems to decrease safety, if anything.
 
Yank&BankmyRJ145 said:
If you hate "Line up and Wait" you are going to hate when they change your landing clearance. ICAO you can only have one airplane with a landing clearance at a time, the rest get "Continue". The FAA wants to move to this also!
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Get that all the time with mil fields. Just gotta know to remember to get the official clearance to land.
 
I'd be horribly confused if atc ever told me to 'line up and wait'. I'd probably throw my hands up in frustration, return to the gate, and go home.
 
Chief Captain said:
Interesting. To me, those phrases don't say the same thing at all.

"As filed" means I would go to the VOR then resume the route I gave to FSS

"Flight plan route" would suggest that I follow the route that's in their flight strip bay- which may not be what I had filed

"Resume own navigation" means I'm no longer getting vectors
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Ditto
 
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