Line up and wait

Why not just allow controllers to utilize both. I.e. a TWR controller is speaking to the pilot of a foreign heavy headed back to whatever hell hole he came from in the first place. "Air India 234, line up and wait, R/W 23." Next up we have an RJ headed to Dubuque..."Position and hold R/W 23."...just like that. I mean we already have precedent set in current ATC/pilot communications for multiple phrases to say the same thing such as a controller telling a pilot to fly to a fix/VOR then:

"As filed"
"Flight plan route"
"Resume own navigation"...

Using both won't make the wheels of airline safety stop spinning. So why should we change it vs using it as an alternative phrase just because Foo Man Chu flyin a triple 7 out of Bangkok can't grasp.."Position and Hold!"
 
I don't have time to do it, but I thought about going back through this thread and cataloging which people are on which side of this topic, sorted by where they are in the industry.

Anybody want to run with it?

:bandit:
 
SteveC said:
I don't have time to do it, but I thought about going back through this thread and cataloging which people are on which side of this topic, sorted by where they are in the industry.

Anybody want to run with it?

:bandit:
Click to expand...

Indifferent with a slight bias towards not changing it. Freight
 
scooter2525 said:
Indifferent with a slight bias towards not changing it. Freight
Click to expand...

That's actually my stance as well, I just don't understand this world's addiction to fixing things that are not, in fact, broken. I'm certainly not going to wake up the day it goes into effect and cry into my Cheerios, but jeez...What's the point!
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Why not just allow controllers to utilize both. I.e. a TWR controller is speaking to the pilot of a foreign heavy headed back to whatever hell hole he came from in the first place. "Air India 234, line up and wait, R/W 23." Next up we have an RJ headed to Dubuque..."Position and hold R/W 23."...just like that. I mean we already have precedent set in current ATC/pilot communications for multiple phrases to say the same thing such as a controller telling a pilot to fly to a fix/VOR then:

"As filed"
"Flight plan route"
"Resume own navigation"...

Using both won't make the wheels of airline safety stop spinning. So why should we change it vs using it as an alternative phrase just because Foo Man Chu flyin a triple 7 out of Bangkok can't grasp.."Position and Hold!"
Click to expand...

Nice attitude :sarcasm:

You don't want controllers using different phrasology because it can get confusing and the control may forget he has foreign operations on the freg. It is just asking for more problems that it is worth. Just do it the same way for everyone.
 
I cant believe so many care so much. Is it really that big a deal?!?

Would you (generic you) REALLY refuse to line up and wait (or whatever you call it) just because they don't say "position and hold". It just comes off as childish, "no, I want it MY way!!" :D
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Why not just allow controllers to utilize both. I.e. a TWR controller is speaking to the pilot of a foreign heavy headed back to whatever hell hole he came from in the first place. "Air India 234, line up and wait, R/W 23." Next up we have an RJ headed to Dubuque..."Position and hold R/W 23."...just like that. I mean we already have precedent set in current ATC/pilot communications for multiple phrases to say the same thing such as a controller telling a pilot to fly to a fix/VOR then:

"As filed"
"Flight plan route"
"Resume own navigation"...

Using both won't make the wheels of airline safety stop spinning. So why should we change it vs using it as an alternative phrase just because Foo Man Chu flyin a triple 7 out of Bangkok can't grasp.."Position and Hold!"
Click to expand...

Don't you think it would help the foreign pilots situational awareness by using standard, well understood phrases? Let's say they're crossing a RWY while somebody is "Position and Wait."
 
What's funny too is if everybody learned it as "line up and wait", no one would have a problem with it!
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Nice attitude :sarcasm:

You don't want controllers using different phrasology because it can get confusing and the control may forget he has foreign operations on the freg. It is just asking for more problems that it is worth. Just do it the same way for everyone.
Click to expand...

As demonstrated by my post you quoted...We already have multiple phraseology for the same thing in use and airplanes don't seem to be falling out of the sky.
 
Two years or so into the int'l world.

"Line Up" (the new standard) has never given me any problems.

The rest of the world? You're taking people who speak their native language, then teaching them technical speak in a foreign, 2nd or 3rd language. It's tough enough to get people that are native speakers to use and understand the proper terms.

Add a scratchy HF, or a busy air hub like, say, Hong Kong where you have arrivals from every corner of the earth. While it's not the staccato that fires out of LGA, it's busy, consistent and safe.

$5 of my $0.02
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Just thinking of some other possible changes based on using wait instead of hold:

"WAIT SHORT OF RUNWAY TWO THREE"

"CROSS RUNWAY THREE SIX LEFT, TRAFFIC IS LINING UP AND WAITING"

"GATE WAIT PROCEDURES ARE IN EFFECT"

"WITHOUT DELAY, LINE UP AND WAIT"
 
"Position and hold" sounds a lot like "hold position". Confusion can occur, whereas "line up and wait" has no confusion.
 
Polar742 said:
Two years or so into the int'l world.

"Line Up" (the new standard) has never given me any problems.

The rest of the world? You're taking people who speak their native language, then teaching them technical speak in a foreign, 2nd or 3rd language. It's tough enough to get people that are native speakers to use and understand the proper terms.

Add a scratchy HF, or a busy air hub like, say, Hong Kong where you have arrivals from every corner of the earth. While it's not the staccato that fires out of LGA, it's busy, consistent and safe.

$5 of my $0.02
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Yes but as I pointed out..Currently, with the different phrase in use here, it's also not inherently unsafe. So why change it. You see, we are already talking about an industry that is so grossly over-regulated that all one need do is to sit down with FAR/AIM and read a hunk of it to come up with multiple examples of contradictory regulations that spawn 5.7 million different interpretations of that reg and the follow on sub-parts, secondary rules and exceptions necessary to remove the confusion over a reg that likely made zero difference in safety even a smidgen of one iota of a bit.

You get a group of regulators together and they go "Gee, we've had several accident involving collisions of cars due to vehicles entering and exiting a hidden driveway around a particular corner. I got it! Let's change the color of the Hidden Driveway caution sign to European Neon Green instead of US Safety Yellow." The signs are changed...fast forward 3 months. A person with a particular brand of color blindness that keeps him from noticing the sign fails to be aware he will be coming around a corner to a potential hazard and T-bones a minivan killing 3 kids, a pregnant woman and the man the pregnant woman was cheating with while her husband is saying "line up and hold" on the radio for the first time at a US airport.

Stuff like this may slightly effect the statistics in a positive way in regards to problems currently being caused by the way things are. But then the change, creates new problems that were not there before that will spin up in the form of growing pains due to a change that was not necessarily ever really needed in the first place.
 
Yeah, I don't even really care that much. I'd be infantile and read back "position and wait...I mean line up and hold...I mean..." for a few days and then I'd get with the stupid, unnecessary program. I do find it amusing that adopting punctilious, stick-up-keister ICAO phraseology will save the world from all the accidents that aren't happening here, but requiring a legitimate, working knowledge of the English language would be an unfair burden on foreign employers, what with their sterling safety records and whatnot.
 
ICAO?

We should tell them to pound sand. Take back RVSM and RNP while you're at it too.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I mean we already have precedent set in current ATC/pilot communications for multiple phrases to say the same thing such as a controller telling a pilot to fly to a fix/VOR then:

"As filed"
"Flight plan route"
"Resume own navigation"...
Click to expand...

Interesting. To me, those phrases don't say the same thing at all.

"As filed" means I would go to the VOR then resume the route I gave to FSS

"Flight plan route" would suggest that I follow the route that's in their flight strip bay- which may not be what I had filed

"Resume own navigation" means I'm no longer getting vectors
 
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