RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
So please correct me if I am missing something or have my facts wrong, but, just so I understand this...The country with the safest ATC system in the world, is changing to the way they do it abroad? Just sayin...
Line up and wait
- Thread starter twotwowoo
- Start date
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Source?
And it's technology and training that makes someone the best...not phraseology.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
You mean like, "taxi holding point xx" that they use already?Try again!
And yes...Icallyouback is rediculous.
Again you're a native English speaker so it makes sense. Why do we use "hold" for patterns in the air yet on the RWY there's no pattern? Position and hold where? There's no room to hold here. Position and wait? Ok...makes sense to everyone.
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
You mean like, "taxi holding point xx" that they use already?
And yes...Icallyouback is rediculous.
The FAA says "taxi to 09 via Bravo". While it should be obvious that the controller would not have told you to taxi from the parking spot and enter the runway, why take the risk?
"Taxi holding point 09" is a bit more verbose, but totally unambiguous. At some airports, there is no ground controller, so you're talking to tower the whole time. This reduces the chance of assuming that you're cleared to enter the runway.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Exactly. It ain't broke. If we went by statistics, the rest of the world would do well to start reporting traffic "on the fishfinder" and giving "a flash". Now, personally, I find those little affectations irritating in the extreme and do my best to communicate in standard phraseology. But if you can't fathom what "position and hold" means, you don't belong in our airspace, chumly. Safest system in the world and you don't have to worry about some little aparatchik with a notebook and a grudge dinging you with the federales because he has a small weewee.
scooter2525
Very well Member
It will be an adjustment. Not out of arrogance, but position and hold makes sense (since? ugh). I would certainly be on board for the metric system. Add it to the national debt tab...
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
We do it just the same way as the rest of the world except for some phraseology. That is the only difference. The rest of the world doesn't really care how we speak here.
Besides it's just three words. Are people really that arrogant and stubborn to change? Really? Just gonna sit there at the end of the runway and exchange in a verbal tiff with the tower? How about get the hell out of my way and go write a letter to your Congressman instead.
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
Not saying that we should need RT Nazi's in ATC, but with some of the RT I've heard, some people would do well to have the FAA write them a letter saying "stick to standard phraseology, or else".
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
Words mean a lot. Words can save lives or kill. After the accident in Tenerife, it was determined that the use of the word "takeoff" was a contributing factor. Since then, "takeoff" is only used when issuing a takeoff clearance. At all other times "departure" is used.
"N123, after departure, fly heading 120, runway 10 cleared for takeoff"
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'm as irritated as you are by the silly good-ole-boyisms. But I'll take some goofy faux-southern chatter to getting a letter from the Man because I said "three" instead of "tree" every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Typical One-Worldism. A bunch of foreigners get their knickers twisted because they have to speaky the engrish and demand changes to the system that is the world standard for very good reason, in spite of antiquated systems and ludicrously overpopulated airspace. And again, if you don't understand what "position and hold" means, go back to the ESL class, because you for damn sure aren't going to be able to keep up with ORD or even ATL approach or ground. Sorry you have to learn English, but we invented the stupid contraptions and made them the ubiquitous mode of long range transport. Maybe someday we'll all speak Esperanto, but until then, stop whining and learn some one-syllable english words.
PS. When was the last time US ATC told you to "Contact ze Breast"?
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
Funny you should mention "tree". I try to use it, but it does take some effort. Re "position and hold"- If English is your first language, it's likely obvious what they want. Consider the pilot who's English is barely at ICAO level 4. It's his first time at KORD, and for whatever reason he's fatigued. He probably has a hard enough time having a regular conversation in English, so the rapid-fire RT at KORD is a real problem. Do you really want him to have to stop and think about what that last instruction was? Wouldn't it be much better if he heard a phrase he was already familiar with?
The whole point is to keep it standard. Find a way that works, and do it that way every time.
If we want to discuss logic, consider this; English is the language of international aviation. The official language of the US is English, since we already know the nuances of the different words, would it not be easier for us to start using the new RT than it is for those for whom English is not the native tongue? Just looking at it from another angle...
The whole point is to keep it standard. Find a way that works, and do it that way every time.
If we want to discuss logic, consider this; English is the language of international aviation. The official language of the US is English, since we already know the nuances of the different words, would it not be easier for us to start using the new RT than it is for those for whom English is not the native tongue? Just looking at it from another angle...
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
My position isn't so much that there shouldn't be standardization as that there should be genuine fluency in the language chosen for international aviation. If "hold" is a confusing word to you, what the are you going to do when you're told to "Hold east on the 090 radial of the XYZ VOR". It's not "fair" that Engrish is the language you gotta know to be a yoke monitor, but it's the way it is. No speaky, no flyie.
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
English is your first language, so "hold" is a nice simple word. As somebody else noted, when the pilot was taught the word "hold", it was probably in the context of a verb meaning "to grasp". Also, in an airplane, "hold" is something you learn as an instrument student. I can't readily think of anywhere "line up" and "wait" are used, so I tend to think this is a better option from a safety standpoint.
I agree that there should be fluency, but perhaps it's safer for us English folk to use "less fluent" phraseology if it means everybody on the frequency will maintain good SA. It's easier for us to do than it is for them.
I agree that there should be fluency, but perhaps it's safer for us English folk to use "less fluent" phraseology if it means everybody on the frequency will maintain good SA. It's easier for us to do than it is for them.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
So what, they're going to grasp east of the VOR on the such and such radial?
Perhaps it's even safer if you have to actually know English to fly an airplane. Again, not a question of "fair", but very seriously a question of "safe". I know a couple of foreign languages well enough to order a meal. I do not suspect myself of being fluent in them, but I recognize that I could become so with the proper impetus, and I'm not "naturally inclined" towards foreign languages. As long as English is the language of aviation (sorry, France, you gave it a good go), why not just learn it and save us all the heartburn of trying to create a pidgin half-assed version so airlines can save on training costs?
RRPower
Well-Known Member
But what do you mean by career advancement? I am not sure have a CL-65 type helps for anything. Can't use it for any of the challengers. Even if I was PIC typed, I couldn't log PIC if I am not the PIC, so that does no good. I think the only thing type that prol has the biggest worth is the 737 for whatever that is worth. But if I was hiring, I would take a guy with a 737SIC type with 5000hrs in the 737 before a guy with a PIC type that is still wet from his training that he bought himself.
I don't know where you work but I know the only difference in ours is that your oral is done one on one with the examier instead of two on one, you fly it from the left seat, and you have to do a no flap landing on that ride. (Which I still had to do one in training anyway so I wasn't exempt). I'm sorry but it 121 world, everyone is trained and tested equally, which they should be. I think everyone should have a full type...you dang well earned it. It's funny how people that get a PIC type think they are so much better than the people they are sitting next too and yet they were bitching like the rest of us when they were sitting over there.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
I understand words kill. But these words are not killing anyone any faster in other countries. Seems the only place with a problem is here. For all those who complain, please do yourself a favor and never fly out of US airspace if this is getting your panties in a wad.
As a side note, I've heard controllers issue "Line up and wait" in their own language to local pilots. It seems that it works in foreign languages as well.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
;-) I don't think that's the case. What do you mean "better?" They get to call the shots?
RRPower
Well-Known Member
No, it is just that people that have a PIC type on all the guys with an SIC type and say it isn't a real type...and you aren't really typed in the airplane and blah blah blah. Like I said, I agree that in GA flying, an SIC type can just be a training endorsement. I didn't even know until last month that you could get one without taking a real checkride. I don't know who can sign them off in GA, but I know it doesn't have to be a DPE. I can understand poking fun at some of those people, but in 121...you are typed in that airplane. You are trained and tested to the same standards. For whatever reason the airlines won't PIC type someone unless they HAVE to. I might could understand not giving out a 737 type at a not so big airline, but an RJ? Like I said, there is NOTHING I can do with a CL-65 type on my certificate.
Nothing personal on this, I just make it a point to argue this everytime I see the people launching an attack on those of us with a 121 SIC type. I am just standing up for myself and those like us. I didn't mean to hijack this thread into the age old arguement that ends the same way boeing vs. airbus airplanes end...getting nowhere
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Probably because the later could be confused with Spot 9. A lot of airport use spots to hold aircraft. eg. taxi spot 83 and monitor ground 121.9. The only probably with the spot system is that most NOS plates don't have them. They are normally on the Jepps.
Try it in ORD, IAD, DTW and you'll be in the penalty box.
Agree. I have heard some nightmares with IAD ATC talking to Mexicana..
The PIC and SIC check rides are different and you do need to take a checkride to get an SIC rating. I'd be interested to see who is handing them out without the training. The PIC check rides usually have a few more manuevers to complete. e.g. on the 727 only the PIC has to perform a two engine inoperative approach (aka single engine).