Line up and wait

So far I'm still not seeing any valid reason not to change it. Mainly just justifications for why people don't want to get used to a new term

Also, why should ICAO Change to accommodate us? That's silly. Why are but one country, ICAO is many. What did Spock say about the needs of the many?
 
"Line up and wait" is fine. It's not that big of a difference.

But then my average day, I deal with "Southernjets 123 callyouback" instead of "Southernjets 123 standby"

"QNH 1013" instead of "Altimeter, 29.92"

"Flight Level one hundred" instead of "Flight Level one zero zero"

It's not that hard and whether we like it or not, there's always going to be a state of flux in aviation. Don't waste brain cells worrying about the small stuff.
 
Really? This is what get's your panties in a knot?

I still can't believe that we insist the world is round...
 
Firebird2XC said:
I'm a fan of "Position and hold" because of the correlation to other uses.

"Traffic holding in position downfield..." during a runway crossing clearance tells you exactly what you know based on being previously told to 'position and hold'.

"Taxi via Alpha, Bravo, hold short runway 35" tells you to STOP short of something, as in STOP MOVING. "Wait," is somewhat vague.. almost an indefinite modifier.

"Line up and wait," has no other real reference other than the actual event at hand.

Position and hold references other ideas in use on the airport surface. I think it makes for better communication.
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the sentence i made bold from your argument is the exact reason the phrase is safer.

the distinction between "line up and wait" vs "hold short" is far greater than "position and hold" vs "hold short", a distinction that gets smaller after your day has gotten longer.
 
I couldn't resist talking about this controversy to a non-pilot acquaintance. I explained the procedure to him and said that in the US ATC used the phrase "taxi into position and hold" to instruct pilots to do it.

He nodded in a "that makes sense" manner.

Then I said that in other parts of the word, they use the phrase "line up and wait." He nodded in the same "that also makes sense" manner.

I told him the that the US was thinking of going to the international form. Again I got the "that makes sense" nod.

Finally, I said that there were folks who opposed this saying that our way was superior to their way.

The "that makes sense" nod changed into a "that makes no sense at all" shake of the head an roll of the eyes.
 
ryanmickG said:
As long as we dont have to learn QFE, QNE, QNH....

blah blah blah

7600
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You already do use 2 of the 3

QFE = an altimeter setting causing the Altimeter to read ZERO when on the runway. I don't know of a lot of people using this.

QNE = we set 29.92 in Hg or 1013 MB for flight in the flight levels so all aircraft are using the same reference point for traffic seperation.

QNH = the local altimeter setting so the altimeter reads the airport elevation when on the ground.


flyingwriter said:
According to this article, the FAA will be changing "position and hold" to the ICAO standard of "line up and wait." I assume it's so foreign pilots don't get confused at our terminology. Personally, I think it sounds ridiculous. "Line up and wait" sounds more like the ATC hiring process than anything to do with flying. Are we really the only country that says "position and hold?"
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It really isn't that big of deal. If we are the only country using pos and hold then get rid of it. ICAO was created to try and unify aviation between the participating countries so flying from one country to the next would be similar.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
I don't know about aviation being the business of global connections. I thought it was the act of keeping metal aloft. The US doesn't need to conform to ICAO standards.
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Let me get this right. You did NOT know that aviation is part of the transport industry? If all you want to do is keep metal aloft, secure it to the ground with a cord, then attach helium balloons to the metal. That keeps it aloft. We knew how to do that long before the Wright brothers.

The US doesn't need to conform to ICAO standards? Isn't the US an ICAO member state?

poser765 said:
Ok now to the original topic. Who cares? Is saying line up and wait really going to effect your mental ability as a pilot.
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It's not that the phrase itself will affect your situational awareness, it's that those who are unfamiliar with the phrase will have less SA.

PeanuckleCRJ said:
Even this phrase- why not change the ICAO book? position and hold literally what you are doing. "Hold" is a standard term. I can see "line up and hold."
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If I'm not mistaken, ICAO only requires "line up". The "and wait" part is an option for members, but it makes good sense to me. I believe "line up and hold" was used some time ago, but I *THINK* it was dropped because it could cause trouble with non-English speakers who heard "line up at hold". Wouldn't you be confused if you were #1 for departure and ATC told you to line up at the hold short line?

Baronman said:
What's so logical about "position and hold?" I'd say most non-native English speakers would learn the primary definition of "hold" as in holding an object. Not, "Hold" as in "Hold in position."

"Wait" is more easily understood by the masses.
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You hit the nail on the head. With the global nature of aviation, ideally, one idea would be represented by one word. Since that's very difficult, we use "wait" so there is no chance of ambiguity, especially in such a critical phase of flight.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
You already do use 2 of the 3

QFE = an altimeter setting causing the Altimeter to read ZERO when on the runway. I don't know of a lot of people using this.

QNE = we set 29.92 in Hg or 1013 MB for flight in the flight levels so all aircraft are using the same reference point for traffic seperation.

QNH = the local altimeter setting so the altimeter reads the airport elevation when on the ground.
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I was waiting on somebody to mention that. Don't know why the FAA opted for the longer AL-TI-ME-TER instead of QNH. Nobody is suggesting we need to learn all the Q-codes.

Bandit_Driver said:
It really isn't that big of deal. If we are the only country using pos and hold then get rid of it. ICAO was created to try and unify aviation between the participating countries so flying from one country to the next would be similar.
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:clap:
 
Doug Taylor said:
But then my average day, I deal with "Southernjets 123 callyouback" instead of "Southernjets 123 standby"
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That is the only phrase that grates on me like no other! It sounds too informal to me like the controller is busy reading a Maxim and can't be bothered while he drools over Megan Fox.
 
Chief Captain said:
Let me get this right. You did NOT know that aviation is part of the transport industry? If all you want to do is keep metal aloft, secure it to the ground with a cord, then attach helium balloons to the metal. That keeps it aloft. We knew how to do that long before the Wright brothers.
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Transport is not the only, maybe even the main object of aviation. That was my point. I will be back after I try your cord and helium experiment.
 
Capt. Caucasian said:
That is the only phrase that grates on me like no other! It sounds too informal to me like the controller is busy reading a Maxim and can't be bothered while he drools over Megan Fox.
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"FOOLY ready for pushback and engine start?"

"Confirm FOOLY ready"

"FOOLY ready"

"Cleared for POOSH POOL"

"Cleared for POOSH POOL Southernets seven nine one." :)
 
Baronman said:
What's so logical about "position and hold?" I'd say most non-native English speakers would learn the primary definition of "hold" as in holding an object. Not, "Hold" as in "Hold in position."

"Wait" is more easily understood by the masses.
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You mean like, "taxi holding point xx" that they use already? ;) Try again!



And yes...Icallyouback is rediculous.
 
Doug Taylor said:
"FOOLY ready for pushback and engine start?"

"Confirm FOOLY ready"
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No, only partially ready. I still need to do my nails. Of course FOOLY ready, I wouldn't have called you if I wasn't ready to go! What part of, "Southernjets 123 at gate 52 is ready for push and start" don't you understand? And don't give me that, "English is my second language" bullcrap. You're Dutch and speak better English than ME!
 
Really? Three pages on this topic?

The proper response should be "Ok, when does it change? Oh by the way, where are we drinking tonight?"

The first answer comes by reading the article, and the second...well, who gives a crap, you're drinking.
 
Capt. Caucasian said:
No, only partially ready. I still need to do my nails. Of course FOOLY ready, I wouldn't have called you if I wasn't ready to go! What part of, "Southernjets 123 at gate 52 is ready for push and start" don't you understand? And don't give me that, "English is my second language" bullcrap. You're Dutch and speak better English than ME!
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"Callyouback ven you aah fooly ready, ask about slot improvement on 133.9!"
 
"Turn left five degrees, say heading on London Control 123.925 ciao"
 
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