Malfunction in rental

minitour said:
As the "manager", I'd stop you right there, charge your card on file and invite you to go down the ramp to the next place.
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At which point I'd take it up with the credit card company. I suspect they'll ask you to produce a reciept with my signature on it. Good luck with that.

You rented the plane per the rental agreement (contract) and you'll pay for it accordingly.
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Is there anything in the rental which says the aircraft are legal and airworthy? The plane you rented me was neither.


All of this chest thumping and threatening means nothing. There's a contract in the filing cabinet and I'll charge you accordingly. Have a wonderful day. I don't need customers that are going to try to weasel or threaten me to get around the rental contract. You're welcome to try the next FBO. I've kicked "students" or "customers" out for less
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Like I said, no hard feelings. Good luck in your future.

Did you still pay for a car? You don't get a free rental just for saying "oh the car pulled to the side!" You're going to pay for a car if you rent a car.
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Did I pay for the miles on the broken car? No I did not. Nor was a charged for it. I paid for the second car they gave me which was in sound mechanical condition because that is the car I actually used. What's your point?


To those that are in the "don't pay!!!" camp, let me pose another question.

Say you were in this same situation only with an instructor on a dual flight. Are you also going to attempt to stiff the instructor on his or her time? ...you didn't get to complete the desired lesson, after all.
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I would probably pay the instructor for his or her time. There are situations where I would refuse to pay a CFI but this isn't one of them.
 
How about an airplane having an inflight electrical failure leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere (with no cellphone reception and the airport phone is broken). Had I been even a few minutes late the shop next to the airport would have closed and I'd have been pretty screwed... I can live with them charging me for the flight if this was a freak thing, because lets face it, stuff happens. But it wasn't the first time this exact same issue had happened with the exact same aircraft. I paid for it quietly but it'd have been a nice gesture to not charge me for it. But whatever... pro rata share and everything.
 
minitour said:
Did you still pay for a car? You don't get a free rental just for saying "oh the car pulled to the side!" You're going to pay for a car if you rent a car.
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Closest thing I came to that was when I rented a pickup truck from one of the common rental places. It was a same model year truck that I rented for 4 days to move some stuff. Going down the freeway, I had a tire blowout. No biggie, but the spare tire onboard was flat. So I had to get it towed. The rental company covered the tow, the tire replacement, and gave me 35% off the total rental cost for the inconvenience. Which was cool, since besides that event, the truck worked fine and served the purpose I'd rented it for.
 
The distinction between a student/hour builder and a business/recreational renter is important. If I were the former, I'd probably pay if it was a fluke occurrence. The latter, no way.

Minitour, do you actually run an FBO or other business? I am no proponent of "customer is always right", but I find your attitude to customer service surprising.
 
pericynthion said:
Minitour, do you actually run an FBO or other business? I am no proponent of "customer is always right", but I find your attitude to customer service surprising.
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I only find the attitude surprising because we're talking about an FBO. It all comes down to supply and demand. Apple has had that sort of 'FU pay me anyway' attitude toward their customer base for years. But they can get away with it because they're offering something that everyone wants. They can afford to piss off a few thousand customers a week because most of those folks are addicted to Apple stuff and no one else offers Apple stuff. An FBO? Not so much. Then again, what do I know. Maybe most FBO's have hundreds of people walking through their door every day just crawling over one another for a chance to rent their mid 70's ratty Cessnas.
 
minitour said:
Say you were in this same situation only with an instructor on a dual flight. Are you also going to attempt to stiff the instructor on his or her time? ...you didn't get to complete the desired lesson, after all.
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At both places that I instructed, we were paid by the company even on a refunded mx flight. The school ate the cost of the rental and the CFI in the interest of good business (and not charging our students for giving them a broken airplane).
 
pericynthion said:
Minitour, do you actually run an FBO or other business? I am no proponent of "customer is always right", but I find your attitude to customer service surprising.
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I've run several businesses, both as "manager" and as owner. Including flight school/rental. It's not about customer service. They expect the business to live up to their end of the deal and I expect students/renters to live up to their end. You got the airplane for .5, you'll pay for .5. The rental agreement we had laid out each situation where you wouldn't have to pay for a plane. This would not be one of them. This is a case of the customer isn't right, but they are the customer. I just don't put up with people getting in my face, being rude and trying to tell me how to run the business. It raises red flags like "what are they going to be doing in my airplanes now in an attempt to get out of additional fees?". I don't need that, the instructors don't need that and neither do the other customers.

Joe Gremlin said:
At which point I'd take it up with the credit card company. I suspect they'll ask you to produce a reciept with my signature on it. Good luck with that.
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At which point I'd produce our rental agreement, with your signature, showing how billing is done. That, along with records from the rental would complete the issue. My attorney would handle any further issues with your credit card company. I've done it before. It's really not that hard, so no luck is really needed, but thanks.

-mini
 
minitour said:
My attorney would handle any further issues with your credit card company. I've done it before. It's really not that hard, so no luck is really needed, but thanks.
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You would pay an attorney hundreds of dollars to avoid what? A $40 chargeback from a customer you just lost?

If it is an MX issue severe enough that the aircraft is not airworthy, I don't see how you can be charging for that in good conscience.

Let's put it this way, if it were a charter customer and not a student, would you charge them for the time? "Sorry Mr Customer about the 1 hour wait on the ramp. Turns out the Citation isn't airworthy... That'll be $3,000 please."
 
You ARE a cheap ass with your instructor if you won't pay them for their time. It's also not my fault the aircraft broke, but I spent time with you, time I could have been across the field with another student at another airplane. I'm an independent contractor. I'm glad you live in Florida therefore there is nothing an instructor would do to get the aircraft ready for you in a dual situation.

It's kind of like calling a tow truck out and having the guy travel 15 miles out to your place, all the while you are fiddling with the car trying to get it started. Right when you the truck pulls in, you get the car fired up and tell the guy sorry, don't need you anymore. Try not paying that guy for his "Service" you didn't receive.
 
Goldmember said:
It's kind of like calling a tow truck out and having the guy travel 15 miles out to your place, all the while you are fiddling with the car trying to get it started. Right when you the truck pulls in, you get the car fired up and tell the guy sorry, don't need you anymore. Try not paying that guy for his "Service" you didn't receive.
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How is it like that at all? It's more like calling the tow truck, having him come out, figuring out that the truck can't tow your car, and then charging you for his time anyway.
 
minitour said:
At which point I'd produce our rental agreement, with your signature, showing how billing is done. That, along with records from the rental would complete the issue. My attorney would handle any further issues with your credit card company. I've done it before. It's really not that hard, so no luck is really needed, but thanks.

-mini
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At which point you would end up losing way more than the 40 dollars it cost to take off and land a defective airplane. Nice business structure you got going on there...
 
ILSstud said:
At which point you would end up losing way more than the 40 dollars it cost to take off and land a defective airplane. Nice business structure you got going on there...
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What exactly was wrong with the plane, aside from it being a fixed gear?
 
ILSstud said:
Forget it...
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C'mon now, I'm certainly not advocating paying full price, especially since the product rented didn't work as advertised or expected, but shouldn't the renter pay something, say even 50% off, since the plane was flown and the renter did get something out of the flight?

It seems only fair.....
 
No I really don't think so. Some of you brought up the point of the CFI and after thinking about it further, I probably would pay for my CFI (if he indeed was NOT getting paid for the flight; albeit my school still paid him). That said, as a renter who wants to go out for the weekend or something I don't feel that I should pay for the 0.2 hours it took me to takeoff and realize the plane was defective. Especially so when it involves something that I could not diagnose during the preflight and/or run-up. Most of the flight schools and FBOs I have been to relied on repeat customers as renters and I know they ran off of VERY small profit margins. I would venture to say that in the interest of keeping a customer, that writing off the 40 dolllars would be the best practice. Not because I am the customer, and I am always right, but because charging a customer for a defective airplane (whether they got to log a landing or 0.2 hours of flight time) just looks cheap. If you don't care about your brand or image, fine. I know, I would stop flying at a place that made me pay for this sort of flight. Also, I would suspect, that if you charged my credit card without my authorization (even if I signed a renters agreement stating that time on the hobbs is what billing is based from) that it would be a bit of a stretch to explain to VISA or MASTERCARD or AMEX that billing for a product that was broken is legit. Who knows, my logic is flawed...I don't think so.
 
This is how it would go down at the school I co-run

Pay for the instructor, because they provided their instructional services through the flight. Its only fair, the instructor wasn't broken.

You won't pay for the airplane. Now if something broke and you go on and fly it anyway, you are going to have to pay (i.e. you continued to do the 3 takeoffs and landings that you needed for your currency). In this case we eat the .5 and send the plane into the hangar. No problems. Yes, mini, the agreement says that billing will be based off of the hobbs time. That means in leiu of tach time, or the time my ass feels like. If you don't charge, you "adjusted" the hobbs time customer to zero. Simple as that. Charge the flight to MX.

Casual renter or time builder, doesn't matter. And honestly there really isn't another option to rent an airplane within a 90 minute drive from our location. So it's not like we would be losing a customer.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
If it is an MX issue severe enough that the aircraft is not airworthy, I don't see how you can be charging for that in good conscience.
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How was this airplane not airworthy.
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Seriously, .5 was put on the hobbs. This wasn't a run-up and come back issue, which is usually covered by the flight school.

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floridaCFII said:
At both places that I instructed, we were paid by the company even on a refunded mx flight. The school ate the cost of the rental and the CFI in the interest of good business (and not charging our students for giving them a broken airplane).
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Geez, that flight school went above the norm.
It would be nice.
 
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