Malfunction in rental

I'm not sure where some of you guys are working, but there is no reason a renter should be paying for an aircraft that is broken, as long as it was discovered shortly after departure and returned as soon as possible. In the OP's case, he discovered a problem that he couldn't have found on the ground, was unable to complete his flight, and brought the plane back.

Before taking my current job, I instructed for a couple years at two different places. Neither place would have charged a student for this. Neither place I trained when I was a student would have charged for this either. In fact, I had this exact thing happen to me once during training and once on a checkride and I wasn't charged either time. Do not let people tell you it's "standard practice" to charge.

As for the rental car example... not that log ago I returned a car to Avis because it had an awful vibration above 50mph. I was given a new car and charged nothing for the first one.
 
floridaCFII said:
I'm not sure where some of you guys are working, but there is no reason a renter should be paying for an aircraft that is broken, as long as it was discovered shortly after departure and returned as soon as possible. In the OP's case, he discovered a problem that he couldn't have found on the ground, was unable to complete his flight, and brought the plane back.

Before taking my current job, I instructed for a couple years at two different places. Neither place would have charged a student for this. Neither place I trained when I was a student would have charged for this either. In fact, I had this exact thing happen to me once during training and once on a checkride and I wasn't charged either time. Do not let people tell you it's "standard practice" to charge.

As for the rental car example... not that log ago I returned a car to Avis because it had an awful vibration above 50mph. I was given a new car and charged nothing for the first one.
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This x12345
 
Douglas said:
You may expect to not pay, but paying for this is standard.

I suggest reviewing your FBOs policy.

If you don't like it, walk. Might be a far walk, as said this is standard.
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I've rented from quite a few places. Charging for an aircraft that is found to be unairworthy on takeoff wasn't in any rental policy that I've read. And even if was, that doesn't mean it ain't negotiable. These days FBOs need customers far more than any of the customers need them. Some managers understand that, some don't.

If they tried to charge me for such a flight, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with the owner or manager. But the gist of the discussion would be as follows.

You think we're discussing whether or not I'm going to pay for the .5 I put on your broken airplane. But that's not what we're discussing at all. This is because I already know that I'm not paying for your broken airplane. Therefore what we're discussing is whether or not I'm going to walk out of here without paying you and you're going to keep me as a customer or whether I'm going to walk out of here without paying and you're going to lose me as a customer. The choice is yours, we're talking about .5 of time for an airplane that was broken when you gave it to me. You can eat the .5 and lose a customer or you can eat the .5 and keep a customer, but either way you're eating the .5. Your choice.

Some managers will choose to keep the customer regardless of it says in their rental agreement, some won't. No hard feelings either way.
 
Mark815 said:
Of course every FBO has a rental agreement, but that doesn't mean it's set in stone. Over the past 3 1\2 years I've worked as a lineguy at different FBOs with flight schools, and more recently a CFI, and in that time I've never seen anyone have to pay for an airplane that is defective, only if it was returned in a reasonable amount of time, I.E. it wasn't flown around and enjoyed before returning it. I've witnessed it first hand numerous times, and the chief pilot or manager has always said, they'd rather eat up the .3 or .4 than lose a customer that will come back and complete a rating. I don't believe this has anything to do with cheaping out or trying to get out of paying, this is just good buisniess IMO. Like a lot of people on here, I myself have spent thousands on aircraft rental, so another $40 isn't gonna put me under, but when you want a product and it's defective, than I don't agree with having to pay in that situation.
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floridaCFII said:
I'm not sure where some of you guys are working, but there is no reason a renter should be paying for an aircraft that is broken, as long as it was discovered shortly after departure and returned as soon as possible. In the OP's case, he discovered a problem that he couldn't have found on the ground, was unable to complete his flight, and brought the plane back.

Before taking my current job, I instructed for a couple years at two different places. Neither place would have charged a student for this. Neither place I trained when I was a student would have charged for this either. In fact, I had this exact thing happen to me once during training and once on a checkride and I wasn't charged either time. Do not let people tell you it's "standard practice" to charge.

As for the rental car example... not that log ago I returned a car to Avis because it had an awful vibration above 50mph. I was given a new car and charged nothing for the first one.
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Mark815 said:
This x12345
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and all of that, x2.
 
minitour said:
If you report it prior to taking the car, sure. Once you leave the lot, that's it.
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Bull pucky. I've gotten into Hertz rentals and taken them off the lot, driven for 20 miles before discovering that it pulled hard to one side and had a terrible front end shimmy. I turned around, drove back and exchanged the car for another. There was no charge for the first car and in fact, I was given a free upgrade for my trouble.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
No, but I would assume that holding a letter from them with that clarification would in turn cause the FAA to go lightly if that was in fact, not the case.
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You presume too much.

ILSstud said:
Last I checked...I can afford my flying habit...thanks for trying to be my financial advisor though.
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You're welcome.

Joe Gremlin said:
I've rented from quite a few places. Charging for an aircraft that is found to be unairworthy on takeoff wasn't in any rental policy that I've read.
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I'd wager that somewhere in the agreement there's a statement, clause, section stating that billing will be by hobbs/flight hour/recording tach. Whether you return shortly after takeoff or do 19 hours of flying, that's how you're billed.

If they tried to charge me for such a flight, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with the owner or manager. But the gist of the discussion would be as follows.

You think we're discussing whether or not I'm going to pay for the .5 I put on your broken airplane. But that's not what we're discussing at all. This is because I already know that I'm not paying for your broken airplane.
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As the "manager", I'd stop you right there, charge your card on file and invite you to go down the ramp to the next place. You rented the plane per the rental agreement (contract) and you'll pay for it accordingly. All of this chest thumping and threatening means nothing. There's a contract in the filing cabinet and I'll charge you accordingly. Have a wonderful day. I don't need customers that are going to try to weasel or threaten me to get around the rental contract. You're welcome to try the next FBO. I've kicked "students" or "customers" out for less.

Joe Gremlin said:
Bull pucky. I've gotten into Hertz rentals and taken them off the lot, driven for 20 miles before discovering that it pulled hard to one side and had a terrible front end shimmy. I turned around, drove back and exchanged the car for another. There was no charge for the first car and in fact, I was given a free upgrade for my trouble.
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Did you still pay for a car? You don't get a free rental just for saying "oh the car pulled to the side!" You're going to pay for a car if you rent a car.

To those that are in the "don't pay!!!" camp, let me pose another question.

Say you were in this same situation only with an instructor on a dual flight. Are you also going to attempt to stiff the instructor on his or her time? ...you didn't get to complete the desired lesson, after all.

-mini
 
PGT said:
Let's say you rent an airplane from an FBO, take off, and notice something wrong so you come back, do you pay for it?
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Who should pay for it? You put time on the engines which puts it that much closer to inspection which costs money for the owner. It sucks when stuff breaks but this was in a way a learning experience for you. You had a problem and reacted which builds experience. Like was previously stated you got .5 to put in your log book.
Pay for it and move on.
 
Certainly glad I don't rent from you minitour. If you really think that paying for 0.1-0.5 hours on the hobbs for a broken airplane (which can only be discovered after takeoff) is a clean business practice and looks good on you....shame. It might be in said "renter's document" that time paid for is off the hobbs, but I would like to think that as a business owner, an owner would understand that charging someone for a damaged or broken product is shady.

...and in regards to your question about "stiffing your CFI..." I have indeed not paid for 0.2 hrs of instruction because a plane had a bad engine during takeoff and no other aircraft was available. If it means he gets stiffed for 0.2 hours it's not my problem. I am the customer, and will not pay for a service that I didn't get.
 
ILSstud said:
I am the customer, and will not pay for a service that I didn't get.
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You did get the service. Just not for the entire duration you were expecting. You are not paying for the service for that entire duration. You just pay for what you use. I don't need customers that don't want to pay for what they use. I've chased money before and it's just not productive. Sometimes it's easier to just cut some customers loose. The ones that don't want to abide by the contract or agreement they signed are the ones you can cut loose without too much problem.

-mini
 
A good policy I have seen in the past is to deduct .3 from the hobb meter if the plane was found to be broken. This protects the consumer who finds something out in the runup or to return to field if something breaks in the local area.
 
subpilot said:
A good policy I have seen in the past is to deduct .3 from the hobb meter if the plane was found to be broken. This protects the consumer who finds something out in the runup or to return to field if something breaks in the local area.
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I'd find that fair.

...if it's in the policy.

-mini
 
minitour said:
You did get the service. Just not for the entire duration you were expecting.
-mini
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Can you explain how a service was received? A malfunction only noticeable once airborne still qualifies as a service all because he logged a landing?? So had the problem not been gear stuck down, but engine problems immediately after takeoff, would the OP expect to be greeted with a bill after a forced landing because it's 'in the policy'? I mean hell he got to log a landing afterwards right?
 
Mark815 said:
Can you explain how a service was received? A malfunction only noticeable once airborne still qualifies as a service all because he logged a landing?? So had the problem not been gear stuck down, but engine problems immediately after takeoff, would the OP expect to be greeted with a bill after a forced landing because it's 'in the policy'? I mean hell he got to log a landing afterwards right?
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Like I said, charge him at the similar non-RG rate. Other than the gear, the plane was fine. What's so hard to understand about that?
 
Hey ILS Stud,
It's 20 degrees outside right now. The hour before you arrived at my FBO I went out, put oil in your aircraft, fueled it up, defrosted it because you couldn't wait until ten when the sun would have melted it off, I sat out with the preheater for 30 minutes to warm your engine and oil freezing my ass off, greeted you, hopped in the airplane with you and got under way, got airborne, noticed the gear pump wasnt shutting off, had to loop the pattern and land to get it checked out, then you decide that you don't want to pay me even the measly .3 you think I didn't earn. Thanks...

BTW, it's semantics.
 
Goldmember said:
Hey ILS Stud,
It's 20 degrees outside right now. The hour before you arrived at my FBO I went out, put oil in your aircraft, fueled it up, defrosted it because you couldn't wait until ten when the sun would have melted it off, I sat out with the preheater for 30 minutes to warm your engine and oil freezing my ass off, greeted you, hopped in the airplane with you and got under way, got airborne, noticed the gear pump wasnt shutting off, had to loop the pattern and land to get it checked out, then you decide that you don't want to pay me even the measly .3 you think I didn't earn. Thanks...

BTW, it's semantics.
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I live in FL, it was 70 degrees with no ice, my instructor usually had students before me, I had to fuel my airplane, and clean the windshield myself.....thanks for trying to imply that I am a cheap ass with my instructors.
 
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