SKYW Poolies - Some are going to class

Trip7 said:
PBS does allow a company to operate with fewer pilots and much more efficiently. As an already senior and expensive pilot group with a good contract, ASA needs to reduce costs and run more efficiently to position itself better for growth. Management is trying to make the company as efficient as SKW is. And whatever PBS program we end up with will also be used by SKW, a win win for both pilot groups.

Playing "hardball" will not yield favorable results for the ASA pilot group when your sister company has similarly paid pilots that are much more productive and efficient.
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According to SH and CT, ASA's seniority isn't the major expense of the pilot group - they point to non-dual qualification (triple now?), our training department and vacation/integration inefficiencies as the bigger problems. PBS will only solve one of those three.

I have to say, PBS as a concession should merit playing hardball, no matter the consequences. That said, as long as the language of the agreement is firm, the agreement does not look like a concession.
 
Trip7 said:
Overlooking long term prosperity for short term gains that hamper or completely destroy your long term prosperity is something that has and will continue to haunt the pilot profession.

Keeping the line bidding system for short term benefits like to bring back furloughs a couple months earlier and to be able to extend your vacation a couple extra days is not worth it when half the pilot group is furloughed within 2 years.
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Sounds an awful lot like the rally cry for just about any concession.

"Let's get these (bigger) airplanes on property, then negotiate wages later"

"If we vote down the union the company will be able to more quickly adapt and gain more flying"


In other words, be careful with your reasoning. I'm not saying either way on PBS vs lines since I have never experienced one of them. However if you think you must take a concession or else somehow bring your company down, well it's just not true.

Look at Expressjet, all that new flying and they have one of the best contracts out there. And (gasp) no PBS, either.
 
Just talked with my "mentor" from SKYW - a few things to note.

- SKYW is considering poolies as employees as they already have seniority numbers, the way things stand, UAL has 93 slots @ SKYW that come after the poolies.

- Classes are being anticipated earlier than mid Feb. He mentioned Feb 1st

- They have made no decisions as to what airplane we will be on.


I'm still debating whether to even go to SKYW.
 
Trip7 said:
Overlooking long term prosperity for short term gains that hamper or completely destroy your long term prosperity is something that has and will continue to haunt the pilot profession.

Keeping the line bidding system for short term benefits like to bring back furloughs a couple months earlier and to be able to extend your vacation a couple extra days is not worth it when half the pilot group is furloughed within 2 years.
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Missing the point. Jtrain got it. It's to improve overall QoL for the pilots, not as a cost savings/expense for management. Marcus, I honestly think you're on the wrong side of things. If something opens up in Skywest/ASA management, you should go for it. You'd be perfect. For the love of god, don't run for a union position, though.

PBS works for the pilots IF you have strong restrictions on how it builds pairings and/or access to the pairing generator with the option to say "Nope. Run it again." See Delta. It works 100% against the pilots when management can do what they want, tweak things behind the scenes and keep the pilots in the dark wondering what the hell happened when they didn't change their preferences from one month to the next and got 7 days off fewer with 10 hours less credit while guys near their seniority got more days off with more efficient trips. Or when the guy last on the list gets a line and the 30 guys right about him get reserve, simply because he had a sim that took him down to 19 days available instead of 20. See Pinnacle.
 
turbomax97 said:
Just talked with my "mentor" from SKYW - a few things to note.

- SKYW is considering poolies as employees as they already have seniority numbers, the way things stand, UAL has 93 slots @ SKYW that come after the poolies.

- Classes are being anticipated earlier than mid Feb. He mentioned Feb 1st

- They have made no decisions as to what airplane we will be on.


I'm still debating whether to even go to SKYW.
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Thats funny. Poolies are already employees? News to me. So whats your employee number?
 
Bumblebee said:
Most of the people I speak with fondly remember hard lines, and wish that we didn't have PBS.
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I have flown the line with 2 years of bidding under hardlines and 4 with PBS. There are good and bad to both.

Good-

Dont fly with the same people all month
Flexible bidding

Bad

Company often tweaks stuff without you knowing when they are short pilots, which basically means they jr manned you without paying you for it

Assignments forced on your schedule for "coverage flying" even though your senior enough to hold off a holiday

No more trips being dropped if vacation touches it

Transitioning from a PM trip to an AM trip back to back with no days off in between

Having multiple trips in a row. ie 3 two-day trips back to back to back. Which require you get 2 hotel nights.

Or a Local day trip tacked onto the end of your four day(never happened with hard lines)

Just so many what ifs going on that nothing is EVER consistent.



For myself, I hold commutable trips on the 700 that credit 22-27 hours for four days and overnight usually in LAX/SFO/MRY/RNO/SAT/SAN basically out west, with the exception of some favorites. I get to pick and choose. I'd hate to be the guy that has that 2 day tacked on the tail end of his 4 day. Life is very different depending on where your seniority lays.
 
mrivc211 said:
I have flown the line with 2 years of bidding under hardlines and 4 with PBS. There are good and bad to both.

Good-

Dont fly with the same people all month
Flexible bidding
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Line bidding doesn't mean you fly with the same people all month. I've never seen our lines like that, each pairing in a line is different, different destinations with different people.
 
PBS, without binding pilot oversight and the ability to tell the company to "run it again", will eat your lunch.

Trust me.

I've personally seen both sides of it both at the "Express" operation in MCO and "Mainline". It was seen as a concession for "Express" and a benefit at "Mainline"

PBS is like raw chicken: If you prepare it correctly, you can have a delicious, nutritious meal. If left unchecked and you go half-ass with implementation, you're gonna get a nasty rash, contract Salmonella poisoning and poop your pants for a week.

Do NOT rush into PBS without a full working knowledge of how your specific implementation of it can help and how it can hurt and the pitfalls.

Additionally, all PBS packages are not equal. There's no program called "PBS" as "PBS" is nothing more than a shortcut way of saying you want a brain submerged in formaldehyde making your monthly scheduling decisions.

Some vendors have great PBS software, others produce PBS software that would give Heinrich Himmler a stiffie. But even then, it's still about oversight.

And no, I haven't been drinking... Yet! :)

Do NOT rush into it.

Ask what software package the company wants to use, then ask member of a pilot group who USES that software about how they feel about it.

Additionally, inquire about pilot oversight of the monthly bidding process.
 
And in the case of ASA, the UNION and the company worked hard to create a PBS system that benefits both the pilot group and the company in an effort to promote future growth. A win win for both sides. But there are still some that think ASA management, even with the help of ASA ALPA, is the next Lorenzo.

Kellwolf, I don't need a lecture on how PBS works. We're not getting anything close to what you guys have at PNCL. Our management actually has respect for pilots. Just because I agree with implementing PBS means Im a management pilot? Should our whole MEC apply for management slots as well?
 
Trust me, I've been around the block a few times on the PBS implementation issues.

What software package are ALPA and management proposing to use?

What type of pilot oversight will you have?

I'm a broken record, but those are two hugely important questions.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Trust me, I've been around the block a few times on the PBS implementation issues.

What software package are ALPA and management proposing to use?

What type of pilot oversight will you have?

I'm a broken record, but those are two hugely important questions.
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From gtpilot's thread:
1% Additional pay increase on 11/20/2010
Min day credit increases to 3.86 on 11/20/2010 (currently 3.75)
Vacation pay increase to 3.5/day or 24.5/week (currently 3/21)
Can flex vacation credit to either maximize pay or time off
Limits 4 days to 60% of trips constructed (currently utilized at 80%)
Trips limited to 4 days or less unless union consents
Extensive rules specifying how bid run solutions are conducted (language to be seen)
Bid award audit trail (denied due to contract, seniority, regs, scheduling dislikes you)
No single days off (ex 3 on 1 off 3 on and/or 5 on 1 off 5 on)
FOs have the ability to decline trips with specific captains (I love this one!)
CDOs are bid on individually (continuous duty over nights or naps)
Open time revamp that includes allowing pilots to bid for portions of the trip
Allows split trip mutual trades
Revamp and clarification of how Ready Reserve assignments are given out
No additional pilots will be displaced or furloughed due to PBS
Contract negotiations still start in May 2010 but contract is extended to November 2011
Brokerage accounts will be added to 401K on January 1, 2011
Flightline will be the bidding system used and pilots will not be charged for access
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Then your next question should be:

"Which pilot group uses Flightline and how do they feel about it?"

"Flightline" is a company run by a Southernjets pilot and his brother, but Southernjets doesn't use "Flightline" for PBS purposes.

Southernjets uses "NavTech" with both a web interface and a stand-alone client-side application.

Additionally, does the "bid award audit trail" mean that a "Pilot PBS QC" team will be formed, comprised of pilots, that have the ability to audit the results (and potentially re-run) prior to the final bid award being posted, or is the audit solely for clarifying issues where a pilot feels that his award did not reflect his seniority rights after the bid award?

Remember man, it's all about "trust but verify".

Ask lots of questions to your reps.
 
mrivc211 said:
Thats funny. Poolies are already employees? News to me. So whats your employee number?
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I'm thinking that I'm not going to post it here, but in my paperwork that I got prior to class, there was in fact an id number there :dunno:
 
Trip7 said:
Kellwolf, I don't need a lecture on how PBS works. We're not getting anything close to what you guys have at PNCL. Our management actually has respect for pilots. Just because I agree with implementing PBS means Im a management pilot? Should our whole MEC apply for management slots as well?
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Not what I said. The REASONING that you're giving for implementing PBS as well as the whole "long term vs short term" thing is why I said you should go into management. Line bidding vs PBS does not need to be rushed. I'm not talking long term vs short term gains, I'm talking about protecting the QoL for the pilots. I've read the other thread with the "terms" for the trade offs on PBS. IMO, I'm not convinced your management isn't trying to pull a fast one, respect for the pilots or not. If your whole MEC thinks with the reasoning you do, then, yes, they should apply for management slots. 'Course they could also be thinking with the "What protects MY QoL, no matter what it does to the rest of the guys" way as well. There was a reason we cleaned house over here at PCL.....
 
kellwolf said:
Not what I said. The REASONING that you're giving for implementing PBS as well as the whole "long term vs short term" thing is why I said you should go into management. Line bidding vs PBS does not need to be rushed. I'm not talking long term vs short term gains, I'm talking about protecting the QoL for the pilots. I've read the other thread with the "terms" for the trade offs on PBS. IMO, I'm not convinced your management isn't trying to pull a fast one, respect for the pilots or not. If your whole MEC thinks with the reasoning you do, then, yes, they should apply for management slots. 'Course they could also be thinking with the "What protects MY QoL, no matter what it does to the rest of the guys" way as well. There was a reason we cleaned house over here at PCL.....
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The new PBS LOA based on the highlights improves QOL for pilots while reducing costs for the company in the event we do grow. It saves the company nothing if ASA stays at its current level of flying.

Growth is the best QOL adjustment for pilots.
 
Trip7 said:
The new PBS LOA based on the highlights improves QOL for pilots while reducing costs for the company in the event we do grow. It saves the company nothing if ASA stays at its current level of flying.

Growth is the best QOL adjustment for pilots.
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You sure about that? You may want to ask the guys over at Mesa how that worked out for them.
 
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