NAFI opposed to 1500 hour rule

Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

I was an above average pilot at 500 hours in a single but was two steps behind when I was hired at a 121 operator. A small part of that was I had been out of flying for a few years and really shouldn't have gotten the job in the firstplace but I sold myself well. Nonetheless..I didn't belong there at that time/level/skill set. Its not easy to make an example of myself, particularily how many times people told me how easy it was to fly a Barbie Jet, but I made it to the end of sim and was told I was close and just not quite there.

Certainly many others did make it through training but even then some never finsihed IOE and of those that did I can say with certainty that at least a few (not all) still didn't really belong there beyond having checked the training boxes.

It was in the end the best thing that could have happened in a way...a year and half of everyday instructing/other and those fundamentals are absolutely cemented. I flew twice what many of my friends at an airline did and while I wasn't breaking an speed records in a Seminole nor up at flight levels..the externals are the same: decision making, wx, ifr, ect. Simply keeping a watchful eye over students and seeing the things they pull out of Murphys hat has been invaluable. I know so much more now..and thats enabled me to see exactly WHAT I DIDN"T KNOW at the time that caused me to wash out.

If I get another shot I know I'll still be new to the airframe, systems and SOPS but theres no doubt I'll be able to focus on that alone. While still no super pilot.. I won't embarrass myself too badly, Captains won't be driven to drink after flying with me. I am today at 1600 hrs worth three times what I was at 500. Not because of the hours per se but because of the experiences during that time..both sought after and unanticipated.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

vikingair said:
I was an above average pilot at 500 hours in a single but was two steps behind when I was hired at a 121 operator. A small part of that was I had been out of flying for a few years and really shouldn't have gotten the job in the firstplace but I sold myself well. Nonetheless..I didn't belong there at that time/level/skill set. Its not easy to make an example of myself, particularily how many times people told me how easy it was to fly a Barbie Jet, but I made it to the end of sim and was told I was close and just not quite there.

Certainly many others did make it through training but even then some never finsihed IOE and of those that did I can say with certainty that at least a few (not all) still didn't really belong there beyond having checked the training boxes.

It was in the end the best thing that could have happened in a way...a year and half of everyday instructing/other and those fundamentals are absolutely cemented. I flew twice what many of my friends at an airline did and while I wasn't breaking an speed records in a Seminole nor up at flight levels..the externals are the same: decision making, wx, ifr, ect. Simply keeping a watchful eye over students and seeing the things they pull out of Murphys hat has been invaluable. I know so much more now..and thats enabled me to see exactly WHAT I DIDN"T KNOW at the time that caused me to wash out.

If I get another shot I know I'll still be new to the airframe, systems and SOPS but theres no doubt I'll be able to focus on that alone. While still no super pilot.. I won't embarrass myself too badly, Captains won't be driven to drink after flying with me. I am today at 1600 hrs worth three times what I was at 500. Not because of the hours per se but because of the experiences during that time..both sought after and unanticipated.
Click to expand...


Wow, I got the point of your post, but please learn to use punctuation!
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Thats the thing when you're a low time pilot. You don't have enough experience to know when you don't have enough experience.:D
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Doug,

Its not really drama. In fact this law wont even effect most of the people on here because anyone that is atleast flying right now will have 1500 hours before this law takes effect if it does. Even if your a 0 time student pilot right now and this bill turned into law by tomorrow, you could probably manage to get to 1500 hours in the 3 years allowed before it goes into effect.

The point is this bill is suppose to address SAFETY. I would much prefer a better training regiment and better duty time regs than a crappy 1500 +ATP bill that does nothing to improve safety.

And as I said before it seems their are a lot of people that are supporting this bill simply because they think this will increase our pay and QOL. Well simply put it wont...

Regionals are going to be requiring 1500 hours or more anyway, is there really a need to put a bill that requires this simply because an anomoly happaned a couple years ago that allowed some people to get into 121 airlines with 250 hours... Come on!
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

3enginejock said:
Regionals are going to be requiring 1500 hours or more anyway, is there really a need to put a bill that requires this simply because an anomoly happaned a couple years ago that allowed some people to get into 121 airlines with 250 hours... Come on!
Click to expand...
If you truly believe this, does it really matter whether it's the airlines or the government requiring it?
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

It's not even that much experience.

Getting out of flight school, busting your hump, you can do it in a little over a year.

Kind of reminds me of a joke from the new hire days. A new hire pilot and a new hire flight attendant are in the employee cafeteria.

The flight attendant asks, "How long is training for y'all?"

The pilot answers, "About seven weeks"

She says, "Two more weeks of trainin' and I could have been a pilot?"
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

I agree with those that say it is not so much about the number of hours you have, but the quality of them.

1500 hours of Banner flying, pattern work, or maybe even flight instructing in a certain part 141 school that I am taking a course in currently, in my mind, cannot be compared to the type of experience that you might get in other areas.

In the end, I think that the 1500 hours is a good idea, but only for the good of the industry, because it might not make very much of a difference for a lot of people that will be applying once they get the time.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

So where'd this idea of flight instructors doing nothing but pattern work come from? I'd really like to know, because when I was still teaching for a living I spent a whole lot of time:

-Doing cross countries with students
-Supervising students to make sure they didn't kill themselves (or me)
-Recovering from unusual attitudes while the airplane was about ready to spin at 400'
-Flying Seminoles across the country to pickup parts for the boss
-Helping another guy fly his Bonzana around the country in solid IMC
-Dealing with MX issues and putting my foot down when something was unsafe
-Developing CRM skills

And a host of other things.

So I'd really like to know where this idea of just futzing around the pattern for 1,500 hours came from, and why everybody BUT flight instructors like to regurgitate it.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

jtrain609 said:
So where'd this idea of flight instructors doing nothing but pattern work come from? I'd really like to know, because when I was still teaching for a living I spent a whole lot of time:

-Doing cross countries with students
-Supervising students to make sure they didn't kill themselves (or me)
-Recovering from unusual attitudes while the airplane was about ready to spin at 400'
-Flying Seminoles across the country to pickup parts for the boss
-Helping another guy fly his Bonzana around the country in solid IMC
-Dealing with MX issues and putting my foot down when something was unsafe
-Developing CRM skills

And a host of other things.

So I'd really like to know where this idea of just futzing around the pattern for 1,500 hours came from, and why everybody BUT flight instructors like to regurgitate it.
Click to expand...
Because it quiets that nagging insecurity they have that maybe they SHOULD have sprung for that CFI ticket...
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

3enginejock said:
The point is this bill is suppose to address SAFETY. I would much prefer a better training regiment and better duty time regs than a crappy 1500 +ATP bill that does nothing to improve safety.
Click to expand...
Don't you realize that this bill addresses all three issues at the same time?
+more experience,
+better training, and
+better time regs

Now we can all be happy and stop arguing about how one is better than the other.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

jtrain609 said:
So where'd this idea of flight instructors doing nothing but pattern work come from?
Click to expand...


My pattern is bigger than your pattern.

Seriously though, as a CFI I have really cut my teeth on many things not covered in flight schools....real cross the country flights and weather flying. Some instructors do get luckier than others though.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

subpilot said:
If you had 300 hours and every single regional was hiring, offering signing bonuses, and all your buddies were jumping on board with the same hours... how many people would say "No, I'm going to build up my experience to 1000~1500 hours before I apply."

This part of the bill would take care of that problem. Notice that I said this part... Along with the 1500TT you are also going to have better training, more stringent screening, and less demanding work/rest rules.
Click to expand...

I did. I went to freight too. I wanted more experience before making the jump.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

subpilot said:
Don't you realize that this bill addresses all three issues at the same time?
+more experience,
+better training, and
+better time regs

Now we can all be happy and stop arguing about how one is better than the other.
Click to expand...

Actually it only addresses one of your points. Yes pilots will have more experience flying 172s.

There is nothing in the bill that improves training.

There is nothing in the bill that improves our duty time regulations.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

jtrain609 said:
So where'd this idea of flight instructors doing nothing but pattern work come from? I'd really like to know, because when I was still teaching for a living I spent a whole lot of time:

-Doing cross countries with students
-Supervising students to make sure they didn't kill themselves (or me)
-Recovering from unusual attitudes while the airplane was about ready to spin at 400'
-Flying Seminoles across the country to pickup parts for the boss
-Helping another guy fly his Bonzana around the country in solid IMC
-Dealing with MX issues and putting my foot down when something was unsafe
-Developing CRM skills

And a host of other things.

So I'd really like to know where this idea of just futzing around the pattern for 1,500 hours came from, and why everybody BUT flight instructors like to regurgitate it.
Click to expand...

Fully agree.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

jtrain609 said:
So where'd this idea of flight instructors doing nothing but pattern work come from? I'd really like to know, because when I was still teaching for a living I spent a whole lot of time:

-Doing cross countries with students
-Supervising students to make sure they didn't kill themselves (or me)
-Recovering from unusual attitudes while the airplane was about ready to spin at 400'
-Flying Seminoles across the country to pickup parts for the boss
-Helping another guy fly his Bonzana around the country in solid IMC
-Dealing with MX issues and putting my foot down when something was unsafe
-Developing CRM skills

And a host of other things.

So I'd really like to know where this idea of just futzing around the pattern for 1,500 hours came from, and why everybody BUT flight instructors like to regurgitate it.
Click to expand...

But...but...that's what CFIs do right? RIGHT?! :D

The thing that helped me most when transitioning from Seminoles into RJs was the fact that I did nothing but teach multi-instrument for the last 6 months of my time as a full-time CFI. I did absolutely no pattern work. There are plenty of opportunities to get real world skills being a CFI, because well, being a CFI is being part of the "real world" of flying.

P.S.: I hate it when someone says a certain segment of flying is more "real world" than another. :)
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

3enginejock said:
Actually it only addresses one of your points. Yes pilots will have more experience flying 172s.

There is nothing in the bill that improves training.

There is nothing in the bill that improves our duty time regulations.
Click to expand...

The bill is part of a larger FAA reauthorization package that covers all of the above.
 
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