HELP!

[Malko]

I can see both sides here. The Chinese contracts are structured so that there is little profit margin per student, so if they go over the allotted time, it can really put a dent in the pocket book.

Were these 141 flights? If so, you may have unknowingly violated the SOPs, which every instructor and student should have. I bet it wasn't clearly explained to you, which sucks.

The only thing I can say is that it is better for you to be fired and try to get some unemployment. Were you 1099 or an employee? If the ladder, make sure you have your ducks in a row, because they will probably try to get you screw you out of it.

Just remember, if you quit or get fired, it is pretty much the same. They will not give you a good recommendation. Take the unemployment if you get it.

I don't know exactly how it is in aviation, but in a large portion of the corporate world they don't give any recommendations anymore. The most that any will say is whether or not you were employed by said company. I would imagine it has something to do with the sue happy society we have...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm seeing some bad advice here, so here's some advice from someone that's represented hundreds of pilots in disciplinary hearings:

1. Sit down and have a heart-to-heart discussion with whoever is the supervisor that has the authority to hire/fire, whether that be the Chief Instructor, Owner, etc. Explain to him that you made a mistake, just wanted to make things better for the students, didn't realize it was such a serious issue but have learned your lesson, yada, yada, yada. Tell him that you just want one last chance, and you promise to be a dedicated employee.

2. If the above doesn't work, bite the bullet and resign. A termination on your record, even at this early stage in your career, is not worth the pittance in unemployment payments that you could get. Besides, you can still apply for unemployment and see if the company challenges it. Sometimes they don't. A termination is a huge black mark on your record, and you don't want to have to explain that in an interview.

3. Come up with a valid reason for the resignation that you can tell to an interviewer. Going back to school, unexpected expenses came up and you needed more income than instructing could provide, etc. Whatever is plausible in your situation.

4. Don't worry about what your employer is going to say over the phone to a future potential employer. By law, they aren't allowed to say much at all. They'll almost certainly just confirm your dates of employment, the fact that you voluntarily separated from the company, and if they're really daring, they might say whether you're eligible for rehire or not, which almost no prospective employer takes into consideration, because many employers have no-rehire policies even for amicable separations.

Good luck with everything. Sorry you're getting screwed, but hopefully you can make the best of it.

 

[popaviator]

I'm seeing some bad advice here, so here's some advice from someone that's represented hundreds of pilots in disciplinary hearings:

1. Sit down and have a heart-to-heart discussion with whoever is the supervisor that has the authority to hire/fire, whether that be the Chief Instructor, Owner, etc. Explain to him that you made a mistake, just wanted to make things better for the students, didn't realize it was such a serious issue but have learned your lesson, yada, yada, yada. Tell him that you just want one last chance, and you promise to be a dedicated employee.

2. If the above doesn't work, bite the bullet and resign. A termination on your record, even at this early stage in your career, is not worth the pittance in unemployment payments that you could get. Besides, you can still apply for unemployment and see if the company challenges it. Sometimes they don't. A termination is a huge black mark on your record, and you don't want to have to explain that in an interview.

3. Come up with a valid reason for the resignation that you can tell to an interviewer. Going back to school, unexpected expenses came up and you needed more income than instructing could provide, etc. Whatever is plausible in your situation.

4. Don't worry about what your employer is going to say over the phone to a future potential employer. By law, they aren't allowed to say much at all. They'll almost certainly just confirm your dates of employment, the fact that you voluntarily separated from the company, and if they're really daring, they might say whether you're eligible for rehire or not, which almost no prospective employer takes into consideration, because many employers have no-rehire policies even for amicable separations.

Good luck with everything. Sorry you're getting screwed, but hopefully you can make the best of it.

Thanks for the advice...Yea I typed up a resignation letter tonight and will talk with the owner and CP tomorrow. Hopefully we can work something out, but it not, as stated in a previous post it will always be a reminder of how important it is to follow every company procedure to a T.

 

[dcramer16]

I'm seeing some bad advice here, so here's some advice from someone that's represented hundreds of pilots in disciplinary hearings:

1. Sit down and have a heart-to-heart discussion with whoever is the supervisor that has the authority to hire/fire, whether that be the Chief Instructor, Owner, etc. Explain to him that you made a mistake, just wanted to make things better for the students, didn't realize it was such a serious issue but have learned your lesson, yada, yada, yada. Tell him that you just want one last chance, and you promise to be a dedicated employee.

2. If the above doesn't work, bite the bullet and resign. A termination on your record, even at this early stage in your career, is not worth the pittance in unemployment payments that you could get. Besides, you can still apply for unemployment and see if the company challenges it. Sometimes they don't. A termination is a huge black mark on your record, and you don't want to have to explain that in an interview.

3. Come up with a valid reason for the resignation that you can tell to an interviewer. Going back to school, unexpected expenses came up and you needed more income than instructing could provide, etc. Whatever is plausible in your situation.

4. Don't worry about what your employer is going to say over the phone to a future potential employer. By law, they aren't allowed to say much at all. They'll almost certainly just confirm your dates of employment, the fact that you voluntarily separated from the company, and if they're really daring, they might say whether you're eligible for rehire or not, which almost no prospective employer takes into consideration, because many employers have no-rehire policies even for amicable separations.

Good luck with everything. Sorry you're getting screwed, but hopefully you can make the best of it.

Somewhat good advice except for 3&4, first of all don't try and come up with a lie about why you resigned. Always tell the truth, then you won't have to worry about the whole story coming out later. It would be better to tell someone the truth, that you were trying to be a better instructor, you unknowingly broke company policy by letting your students experience different airports, and you had to resign.
Number 4 is really bad advice. ALWAYS worry about what a previous employer says over the phone to a potential employer. Just because they are only required to provide dates doesn't mean they won't provide a little extra, know what I mean. If it's a huge company with an HR department then yeah, most likely they will only provide dates. But with a smaller company, all bets are off. ALWAYS try to leave under good terms, you never know if that ticked off employer today will burn a bridge for you tomorrow. Good Luck, sorry that happened to you. Sounds like you were a caring instructor, and this industry needs more people like that.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I don't think he "knowingly" did anything. The 141 airport issue is an oversight most likely and not a competence issue. Most 141 programs, including the one I was an asst chief of, encouraged this sort of thinking and not even the POI checked up on what airports were visited. When pressed he admitted he simply didn't care.

Exactly. I'll bet dollars-to-donuts that his 141 "Standardization" was a checkout flight with the chief in a 172 and "good to go". I'll bet they never reviewed the TCO with him, or even told him "this IS the FARs for us, so read it!".

Even if they did, for them to come right out and can him for it is, to my mind, inexcusable. For a situation like this, the employee should AT LEAST be questioned about it and the source of the misunderstanding traced. If he continued to break TCO (or even non-legally-binding school policy) after that, that would be grounds for firing.

To the OP, do you have the airport issue in writing from anyone in authority? Because either they advised you to go to airports outside the TCO (bad) or they are firing you in part for breaking a nonexistant rule (also bad).

 

[Roger, Roger]

Were these 141 flights? If so, you may have unknowingly violated the SOPs, which every instructor and student should have. I bet it wasn't clearly explained to you, which sucks.

Yup. I know that when I started teaching, no one really explained to me anything about what I had to abide by in part 141, other than that we HAD to follow the syllabus. Stuff like airport requirements were a complete surprise to me.

 

[popaviator]

Exactly. I'll bet dollars-to-donuts that his 141 "Standardization" was a checkout flight with the chief in a 172 and "good to go". I'll bet they never reviewed the TCO with him, or even told him "this IS the FARs for us, so read it!".

Even if they did, for them to come right out and can him for it is, to my mind, inexcusable. For a situation like this, the employee should AT LEAST be questioned about it and the source of the misunderstanding traced. If he continued to break TCO (or even non-legally-binding school policy) after that, that would be grounds for firing.

To the OP, do you have the airport issue in writing from anyone in authority? Because either they advised you to go to airports outside the TCO (bad) or they are firing you in part for breaking a nonexistant rule (also bad).

Yea it wasn't explained to me...I studied it and followed the rules in it...but the whole approved xc deal is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. In the end its my word against theirs, I was under a different understanding of what was expected....

 

[popaviator]

I just want to say a big thanks for all the input and advice you guys gave me....seriously....thank you.

I just spoke with the CEO of the company and explained myself and apologized, he had no idea about the situation which I guess is a good thing. So now he's going to talk to the CP and then we'll have another meeting. I'm crossing my fingers but all I can do now is plan for the worst and hope for the best...

 

[mshunter]

Bite the bullet man. Resign, and start looking for other work. I know the whole unepmloyment thing sucks, and is scary, but I would resign. If anything, try and keep working there for as long as it takes to find other work. And look in the TCO for a list of approved airports. If there is no list in the TCO, or something that refers you to a list, then your employer has no leg to stand on. Something seems fishy with your employer.

 

[JoelT]

Somewhat good advice except for 3&4, first of all don't try and come up with a lie about why you resigned. Always tell the truth, then you won't have to worry about the whole story coming out later. It would be better to tell someone the truth, that you were trying to be a better instructor, you unknowingly broke company policy by letting your students experience different airports, and you had to resign.

I don't think that is what he was saying.

Number 4 is really bad advice. ALWAYS worry about what a previous employer says over the phone to a potential employer. Just because they are only required to provide dates doesn't mean they won't provide a little extra, know what I mean. If it's a huge company with an HR department then yeah, most likely they will only provide dates. But with a smaller company, all bets are off. ALWAYS try to leave under good terms, you never know if that ticked off employer today will burn a bridge for you tomorrow.

Totally incorrect. Like Todd, I have been a Union Rep and have represented many pilots in disciplinary and termination hearings. What you describe is VERY illegal and can cause both companies to be sued for a whole heck of a lot of money. I have seen it happen. Do a search for PRIA.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Yea it wasn't explained to me...I studied it and followed the rules in it...but the whole approved xc deal is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. In the end its my word against theirs, I was under a different understanding of what was expected....

I'm still curious if the approved airports list is TCO approved or not. If that list is not contained or referenced in a document labeled "FAA 141 APPROVED" or something along those lines, they don't have a leg to stand on, at least as far as the airport issue.

 

[popaviator]

Update: I talked with the CP and I decided to bite the bullet and give my letter of resgination. I left on the best terms possible and even got a letter of recommendation. Thanks for all the advice...time to find a way to pay the bills.

 

[Douglas]

Good luck!

 

[dcramer16]

Totally incorrect. Like Todd, I have been a Union Rep and have represented many pilots in disciplinary and termination hearings. What you describe is VERY illegal and can cause both companies to be sued for a whole heck of a lot of money. I have seen it happen. Do a search for PRIA.

Like I said, at a large company the HR department will only verify dates, of course. But at small mom & pop companies, Johnny, the guy answering the phone may spill his guts about everything. Not really legal, but it happens. And if you get a bad reference from a previous employer, do you think the prospective employer is going to call you and say "Hey, just thought you should know, your last employer said you're bad, and not to hire you, so we're not." Um, no.

 

[swisspilot]

Next time just ask the CP if it's ok to go to an other airport for that flight, at my old 141 school we would fly to airports outside the approved list all the time, just make sure they know you are doing it, as long as not the entire fleet does it should be fine..I don't think that list has nothing to do with the FAA or any regulation. For a dual flight I don't think my school ever said no..maybe for a solo..

 

[b2boma]

I did some of the 141 chinese contracts in central cali for a while. They never explain the syllabus very well. It really sounds like they were trying to make an example of you. We had set airports in the syllabus, but it generally says in most of them you can fly to other airports as long as they are approved. Honestly I just flew to whatever airport I wanted because management was never going to check for the life of them. But if it was an honest mistake management would have simply covered for you and said they were approved. I do think it was a good call on the resignation vs getting fired even though the unemployment would have been nice. Good luck

 

[Berkut]

Don't worry about what your employer is going to say over the phone to a future potential employer. By law, they aren't allowed to say much at all.

What you describe is VERY illegal

Not really legal, but it happens.

What law is this?

 

[germb747]

I don't mean to rub it in; sorry you're having to learn the hard way.

But, it does appear from your posts that you knew flying to unauthorized airports was against company policy (whether or not it was against the FARs), and yet decided to do it anyway. Was it a terrible crime? No, but it does show an employer that you tend to pick and choose which rules to follow and paints a certain picture of you as a professional. No matter how noble your intentions, you're working for someone else, flying their airplanes, and training their customers--you must follow their procedures. Don't like it? Go into business for yourself and make your own rules. I probably wouldn't have fired you for a first offense if you were otherwise a good instructor; however, if it was a pattern of behavior, it'd be another story.

Learn your lesson hard and become a better person. Sorry bro.

 

[JoelT]

What law is this?

PRIA (Pilot Records Improvement Act)

dcramer16,

First off, airlines do not call the previous employer. There is a form that is sent from them to fill out. If the previous employer submits info that is not asked for then, the prospective airline is required to tell the employee. Like I said, there have been many successful lawsuits concerning this. This is stuff that is taken very seriously.

 

[dcramer16]

PRIA (Pilot Records Improvement Act)

dcramer16,

First off, airlines do not call the previous employer. There is a form that is sent from them to fill out. If the previous employer submits info that is not asked for then, the prospective airline is required to tell the employee. Like I said, there have been many successful lawsuits concerning this. This is stuff that is taken very seriously.

Yes, lawsuits have been filed because this kind of stuff DOES happen. If it never happens, lawsuits wouldn't happen.