HELP!

popaviator

popaviator

Well-Known Member
Well.... I got some bad news from Management today that apparently I have 2 options... 1) take a voluntary resignation or 2) get canned.

The reasons that I have to go through this are because I went on xc flights with my students that were not on an approved list or airports to visit (main reason being cost of fuel, which I always made sure would be less than 4$) My only motive was to give my students a great cross country experience and keep the flights from getting repetitive. My managers threw the word "illegal" out alot....something along the lines of the xc routes being mapped out previously for the school and that by not sticking to them was illegal. Also my chinese students love the rockets so I fllew to a game with 2 students. I figured it would be a great experience for them. There was also an issue of the student I flew with being 6 hours over his alloted time in the program which I said I would pay for out of my paycheck. Management said that wasn't the problem...:confused: So I can only think that they've got it out for me or are trying to make an example out of me...idk. There was also an issue of a relationship with a student rumor which wasn't true, but they're trying to use that as ammo and I don't even see anything about it in our SOP. So overall I know I colored outside the lines and bent a few rules but I just feel like I'm getting screwed over...:mad:

Any Input would help out greatly..... gawd....thinking about being an unemployed pilot right now sucks....
 
So by the mention of the Chinese students, I am gonna assume you are working for a Part 141 school. I taught at a Part 61 school, but did some of my training Part 141. If I remember correctly, being Part 141 there are "approved" airports that can be used for cross countries. By them being "approved", for argument sake, any airport not mentioned in that list would be "not approved". (I think there may be a loophole or two that you can get an airport temporarily approved though.)

Although I agree with your idea of going to new, neat, and exciting airports, I think your management may have a good case.
 
I admit I'm not as familiar with the FAR's as some people here, but I don't know of any FAR that says you can only fly dual x-country flights to some list of FAA approved training airports. That's the only way it could be illegal. Company policy is another matter.

Make sure your final check is for the right amount and doesn't bounce
 
Mike H said:
I admit I'm not as familiar with the FAR's as some people here, but I don't know of any FAR that says you can only fly dual x-country flights to some list of FAA approved training airports. That's the only way it could be illegal. Company policy is another matter.

Make sure your final check is for the right amount and doesn't bounce
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If it is part 141 then the schools TCO has specific airports that were approved, so you have to stick to them....
 
There is a list of approved x-c airports for 141 but it is not because of fuel costs, which it seems like they have geared it towards. This sort of crap gives another undeserved black eye to the 141 idea.

There was also an issue of the student I flew with being 6 hours over his alloted time in the program which I said I would pay for out of my paycheck.
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Unless you've been negligent as an instructor, you paying is really uncalled for.

Dude, sorry you are getting screwed over like this.
When they ask you about your "voluntary resignation" say, 'you don't pay me enough to resign, I :soapbox:quit.' Actually don't.
And you should totally make that rumor true before you leave...get some. (Again bad advice, actually don't.)

The good news is that there seem to be more CFI jobs around!
Good luck dude, it sounds like these guys are better off in your past anyway.
 
My question is was there a written set of rules to follow? Do you have an employment contract stating what you could and could not do, where you could and could not go?
 
wjmiller3 said:
If it is part 141 then the schools TCO MIGHT HAVE specific airports that were approved, so you have to stick to them....
Click to expand...
Fixed it for ya.

Also, any airports used MUST meet 14 CFR 141.38 criteria. A common issue here is stuff like no windsock, which, if you stuck to mainly civilized airports, is no big deal.

So in summary, you MAY have done something illegal, you may not have. If your TCO lists the only airports you are allowed to use, you are dead in the water unless you can prove that your employer never made that clear to you. Part 141 requirements are something that is almost never covered in new employee standardization at such schools.

However, if your TCO does not have such a list (as was the case with my previous employer) and the airports you went to met the criteria in 14 CFR 141.38, then they are BSing you.

As for what kind of scumbags your manglement must be to spring this on you without giving you a warning (hey, you need to stick to this list next time)....well, lets just say that if you can escape unemployment, you're better off without them.
 
First off, you did nothing completely illegal. Second, you don't want to work for that company. I delivered a diamond up there a few months ago and I was not impressed. Apparently I parked in the wrong place and ticked someone off who pouted like a child.

Now of the two choices you're left with they both suck. It sounds to me like they're really trying to cut costs or make an example and tag buddy, you're it.

Jobs are scarce but not impossible to find. Walk away and in your next interview don't be afraid to tell your story. Helping your students is reckless, illegal or foolish. It's honorable. In the meantime find something to pay the bills and go volunteer at Cavanaugh or Frontiers of Flight.
 
Unfortunately I would take your lumps, be professional about it and resign. It would be more difficult to explain termination down the road for this - especially for this particular reason at a 121 carrier. Accept responsibility for your actions. Try your best to leave on a good note, both in person and on paper.

Good luck to you.
 
Sucks man. Wish I had something for you up in the DC area but no one is hiring CFI's up here. In fact another school just went out of business. Don't think you want to come up here anyway. ;)

Edit: Check out Transpac in PHX
 
Sorry, I don't agree much with the above posts. You knowingly violated company policy and now you are going to reap the consequences. What you did was stupid and now you are getting your punishment. It doesn't matter how dumb you think the policy is, it is there and as an employee you must follow it. I personally think they are throwing you a bone by letting you resign, I think you should get canned. The firing would be difficult to explain down the road.

I think you will find that most companies will work with you if you screw up, or make an honest mistake, but knowingly violate company policy or lie will get you fired.

I think you should resign (so you are not fired) and learn from this. If you don't agree with a policy, talk to a supervisor about it and try to get it changed. Don't just violate it for the hell of it.
 
aevfo said:
Sorry, I don't agree much with the above posts. You knowingly violated company policy and now you are going to reap the consequences. What you did was stupid and now you are getting your punishment. It doesn't matter how dumb you think the policy is, it is there and as an employee you must follow it. I personally think they are throwing you a bone by letting you resign, I think you should get canned. The firing would be difficult to explain down the road.

I think you will find that most companies will work with you if you screw up, or make an honest mistake, but knowingly violate company policy or lie will get you fired.
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I don't think he "knowingly" did anything. It's not his responsibility to check up on his students financial status, thats what the bosses get paid for. Most places I know have an automatic lockout in their scheduling programs. The 141 airport issue is an oversight most likely and not a competence issue. Most 141 programs, including the one I was an asst chief of, encouraged this sort of thinking and not even the POI checked up on what airports were visited. When pressed he admitted he simply didn't care.

Did the guy mess up, yeah, but nothing he did was termination worthy in my regard.
 
Roger said:
Fixed it for ya.

Also, any airports used MUST meet 14 CFR 141.38 criteria. A common issue here is stuff like no windsock, which, if you stuck to mainly civilized airports, is no big deal.

So in summary, you MAY have done something illegal, you may not have. If your TCO lists the only airports you are allowed to use, you are dead in the water unless you can prove that your employer never made that clear to you. Part 141 requirements are something that is almost never covered in new employee standardization at such schools.

However, if your TCO does not have such a list (as was the case with my previous employer) and the airports you went to met the criteria in 14 CFR 141.38, then they are BSing you.

As for what kind of scumbags your manglement must be to spring this on you without giving you a warning (hey, you need to stick to this list next time)....well, lets just say that if you can escape unemployment, you're better off without them.
Click to expand...

OK, I am somewhat new to 141 and I didn't know you could have a 141 school without a TCO that states the approved airports.

I teach at a 141 school but I don't get any of the 141 students, I get the locals. The foreign students don't like me cause I won't put up with sub-par radio communication, I ground them if they cant communicate in english so they just quit giving me the foreign students..... FINE BY ME!!!
 
aevfo said:
Sorry, I don't agree much with the above posts. You knowingly violated company policy and now you are going to reap the consequences. What you did was stupid and now you are getting your punishment. It doesn't matter how dumb you think the policy is, it is there and as an employee you must follow it. I personally think they are throwing you a bone by letting you resign, I think you should get canned. The firing would be difficult to explain down the road.

I think you will find that most companies will work with you if you screw up, or make an honest mistake, but knowingly violate company policy or lie will get you fired.

I think you should resign (so you are not fired) and learn from this. If you don't agree with a policy, talk to a supervisor about it and try to get it changed. Don't just violate it for the hell of it.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, the only reason I went to the airports was after an instructor meeting where we were told that if the airport had fuel for less than what we have at our home base it was O.K. I was'nt trying to break the rules, just make the xc experience for my students enjoyable......oh well.....Its aviation, I better get used to it :D
 
Sorry to hear. Trite as it sounds, use it for a learning experience.

Any bigger company you work for later on will have a thick set of policys and procedures. Study that hard, and stick to them. They were generated from previous company experiences, and going outside any of them may invite a standing on the carpet.

Good luck in your job search!
 
popaviator said:
I understand what you're saying, the only reason I went to the airports was after an instructor meeting where we were told that if the airport had fuel for less than what we have at our home base it was O.K. I was'nt trying to break the rules, just make the xc experience for my students enjoyable......oh well.....Its aviation, I better get used to it :D
Click to expand...

I can see both sides here. The Chinese contracts are structured so that there is little profit margin per student, so if they go over the allotted time, it can really put a dent in the pocket book.

Were these 141 flights? If so, you may have unknowingly violated the SOPs, which every instructor and student should have. I bet it wasn't clearly explained to you, which sucks.

The only thing I can say is that it is better for you to be fired and try to get some unemployment. Were you 1099 or an employee? If the ladder, make sure you have your ducks in a row, because they will probably try to get you screw you out of it.

Just remember, if you quit or get fired, it is pretty much the same. They will not give you a good recommendation. Take the unemployment if you get it.
 
Sorry to hear that man.

I can ask around up here and see if Monarch or the clubs need any CFI's but I doubt it, especially with the club. If I find anything I'll let you know.
 
Write a letter to the FAA detailing everything the company does that you feel is unsafe, let them can you, then rake them over the coals under whistle blower protection:).

Honestly, as I understand it, if you quit you will not get unemployment, and if you resign, you will still be asked why you resigned.

Have you sat down with you cp, and talked? For the most part this seems like something that gets worked out at a carpet dance, unless there are previous issues. Then again, could just be trying to clear up the overhead. Unfortunatly,employment law regarding wrongfull termination is not very strong, and you would not likely gain much from fighting them.
 
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