Leans

[t-cart]

I'm going to guess not.....the instructors who we were flying (in my original story that is) with both have several thousand hours in tactical jets, and all 4 of us had varying degrees of it. In regular IMC, one thing I try to do which might help you is transition into the cockpit before you go into the clouds/IMC. That last little rush while going into the goo can certainly do it.

Thanks AMG.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Honest question...Do the leans ever leave? Do you get to the point that you don't get them? I don't do much IMC, and I seem to get them as soon as I go in the cloud. This is a real concern to me. can you develop a "tolerance" to them?

PS...I am instrument rated, I just seem to have a problem with this.

I agree wholeheartedly with //AMG's response.

You do develop a "tolerance" if by that you mean that you still get them but can overcome them.

It's also true that those of us who fly in the clouds less (including me) are more susceptible to them and that they will tend to be strongest when first entering the clouds - that little bit of "am I sure I can really do this" doesn't help .

I do the same thing as //AMG - make a purposeful transition to the instruments before entering the clouds. It doesn't have to be a long time - even a second or two of "I am now switching to instrument mode" coupled with fixating for the same length of time on the AI before moving to a normal scan, can help a lot.

 

[t-cart]

I agree wholeheartedly with //AMG's response.

You do develop a "tolerance" if by that you mean that you still get them but can overcome them.

It's also true that those of us who fly in the clouds less (including me) are more susceptible to them and that they will tend to be strongest when first entering the clouds - that little bit of "am I sure I can really do this" doesn't help .

I do the same thing as //AMG - make a purposeful transition to the instruments before entering the clouds. It doesn't have to be a long time - even a second or two of "I am now switching to instrument mode" coupled with fixating for the same length of time on the AI before moving to a normal scan, can help a lot.

Thanks guys. So I'm not the only one?

 

[bucksmith]

other than the guys entering IMC and getting the leans, I'd be interested to hear what everyone else was doing right before they got 'em...I've had instr students in IMC over correcting, exceeding standard rate and yanking/pushing the pitch, next thing ya know my head is spinning and I'm nervously scanning alt. and HI and barking orders...little scary the first time it happens, but ya just stare at those intsruments and runthe occasional cross check to make sure they're not lying...i think its the worst when you're the instuctor, not flying but in charge of the safe outcome of the flight...I've never felt it like that when I was flying ...

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

other than the guys entering IMC and getting the leans, I'd be interested to hear what everyone else was doing right before they got 'em

My worst case was a few years ago when a friend and I flew to OSH in his 182. He was always PIC and, having no significant right seat experience, always sat left seat.

It was my leg to fly. We were in the clouds and it was the first time I did sustained flight from the right seat in the clouds. Since I had to look left to see the instruments, the effect of clouds and variation in light intensity moving past the left side of the airplane made me feel like I was in a constant right turn. Not a big problem but it did take a bit to get used to it and knowing about and anticipation the visual illusion was big help later.

 

[mdspytko]

Last month I had a flight where I had to pick up a customer for some aerial photography (other airport was 20nm away). I'm a CFI and luckily my shool is kind enough to give us instructors one hour a month to keep up instrument proficiency. Well this particular day I had to fly into the mess and as soon as I got in IMC, I felt disoriented. I felt like I was immediately turning. I kept telling myself, sometimes out loud, scan the instruments. After a little while of flyign in the clouds, I became more comfortable about what was going on and my instrument scan was pretty fast. One thing that really helped me was visualizing where I was at in the grand scheme of things (situational awareness). I guess, not knowing exactly where I am sometimes "confuses" me. I shot the approach and broke out about 300 feet above mins and that was all good. After I had finished with this customer, (aerial photo shoot over the Gulf of Mexico), on my return trip home, I got back in the clouds for more experience. After having done it several times that day and keeping current, that return trip was very enjoyable. I was actually able to listen to an AM radio station (ADF, what else are they good for right?) listen to approach and even joke with controllers a little bit, and stay ahead of the airplane. On that return trip I wasn't disoriented at all. Since then I try to always go up in actual each month, with another instructor so we can combine our times, to keep up with proficiency and ofcourse, so someone is there to back me up if I do get disoriented.

The point I'm making here is:
1. Keep current and although simulated is good, get actual. Its better to go with someone who is current, but nothing compares to the real thing.

2. Keep yourself scanning and keeping up your SA (this atleast works for me though I admit, maybe not everyone). To a certain extent I would say its keeping your mind off of trying to "listen" to the bodily senses.

 

[///AMG]

Had another experience today with it, significantly less noticeable though and I noticed it quickly. Was in parade position on my lead in a pretty thick low layer that we were getting vectored around in for a GCA. Solid IMC for what seemed like 20 minutes, feeling like I was in a right hand turn.....which kept making me subconsciously keep creeping into my lead (who was on my left). I think my IP probably just thought I was trying to be a blue angel, but I was definitely fighting it until we finally broke out on final. Good experience though

 

[g4downin]

Wouldn't that be considered a false horizon leading to spatial disorientation? I was under the impression that the leans were exclusive to a phenomenon that occurred after rollout to S and L from a prolonged turn (long enough to stabilize the sensory hairs in your vestibular system) maybe I'm just being pedantic)**

 

[///AMG]

Wouldn't that be considered a false horizon leading to spatial disorientation? I was under the impression that the leans were exclusive to a phenomenon that occurred after rollout to S and L from a prolonged turn (long enough to stabilize the sensory hairs in your vestibular system) maybe I'm just being pedantic)**

What I experienced was lack of horizon, followed by all the little corrections in bank and attitude needed to fly formation, that eventually screw up your inner ear and you lose track of which way is S&L. From our position in the flight, the lead jet is our attitude gyro, regardless if he is turning, inverted, S&L, descending, etc. so it becomes a little difficult to fight off the sensation. Spacial D? Yes certainly. Leans? Well if we get back to straight and level and I am physically convinced that we are in a shallow (or maybe even not so shallow) bank, then I guess I would consider it to be the leans.......this is what I was talking about anyway.