Leans

[///AMG]

I had my first real experience with the leans/vertigo yesterday afternoon coming home from a long cross country flight. We were pretty much IMC all the way from OKC to Jackson, MS at FL270 nibbling at the bottom of a high overcast and above a very thick low overcast....pretty hazy outside of the upper layer. Was dash 2 of a section of jets, and had been flying a loose admin cruise position for the better part of 45 mins when it finally hit me. Was thinking to myself "why the **** is lead turning right now? We are heading direct to Meridian...", then I look down and see that we are straight and level. Spent about 10 minutes trying to convince myself that we WEREN'T in a 30 AOB right hand turn. Real crazy stuff, and pretty much all 4 of us in the flight had varying degrees of vertigo going on for the remainder of the flight until we broke out into beautiful wx just east of Meridian. Pretty interesting experience, at least with the realization of what was happening. Anyone else have any good experience and/or tips in dealing with this? Really caught me off guard

 

[granlistillo]

Pretty interesting experience, at least with the realization of what was happening. Anyone else have any good experience and/or tips in dealing with this? Really caught me off guard

Only once- Flying at midnight we were flying close to some cumulus buildups that were sloping. I got a real hard case of the leans. I said "man I gotta case of the leans". Captain said me too- to the left! I think the only way to deal with it is just focus on your instrument scan and don´t look out. There was enough ambient light to light up the clouds to give a false horizon, and after that my body was tricked. Really was glad the autopilot was on. Not really scary, but enough to make an impression on me, and I can see how it could go wrong.

Edit: I guess that won't help too much in a form flight.

 

[minitour]

I get the leans frequently when rolling out of a turn. I just really have to fight it and usually it's a sign to me that my scan is a little slow. The more I'm concentrating on what's happening in front of me, the less I get affected.

Just keep the scan going and you have to trust what your instruments are telling you. I have no idea how this would apply to formation flight. It's definitely not something I'm too familiar with.

-mini

 

[MikeD]

Anyone else have any good experience and/or tips in dealing with this? Really caught me off guard

Yeah, big time. I talk about it in the "worst inflight situation" thread, where I kept wanting to level the aircraft from a perceived turn that wasn't happening, while IMC in the lightning, rain and turbulence. A truly scary sensation.

 

[mshunter]

I find when I am using the arm rest, I get the leans (i.e. leaning on something). I have to tell myself not to do it, else I get all spun around. It happens everytime I rest my arm on the arm rest. Just don't listen to your body I guess.

 

[fish314]

I've gotten it a bunch as #2 doing fingertip through IMC... In fact, almost every time doing fingertip through IMC as #2. That's always the worst. Didn't have a choice though, we didn't have any equipment that would let us fly looser than that. Just MK-1 eyeballs.

 

[Hacker15e]

As has been mentioned, that's pretty typical when flying formation on the wing in IMC for long periods of time.

I usually get it while I'm on the tanker, out in the observation position on the wing, either at night or in the weather.

 

[fish314]

As has been mentioned, that's pretty typical when flying formation on the wing in IMC for long periods of time.

I usually get it while I'm on the tanker, out in the observation position on the wing, either at night or in the weather.

Hey Hacker,

When you're in observation are you padlocked on us, or is it more like a route position?

(Assuming it's not IMC, of course! I've seen you guys parked in close enough to make me really nervous if we've had to go through wx.)

 

[MikeD]

Hey Hacker,

When you're in observation are you padlocked on us, or is it more like a route position?

(Assuming it's not IMC, of course! I've seen you guys parked in close enough to make me really nervous if we've had to go through wx.)

Observation position is for when we're actually tanking / awaiting to tank, so for us it was forward of the normal extended wingline and almost abeam you. Thats just so we can expedite through the AR process with the formation, VMC or IMC. Obviously becomes more important during IMC (4.6 my record for IMC on the wing of the tanker crossing the Atlantic, where it kept feeling like the tanker was doing slow barrel rolls into me). The reason I'm parked so close to you, especially if about to penetrate WX is I don't want to lose you (esp over the Atlantic) as I didn't have the luxury of A/A radar that the pointy-nose birds......just A/A TACAN which with the -135 I could only get DME with, not bearing and range like with the KC-10.

When just cruising with you in between tankings, such as an ocean crossing etc, then you'll see the fighter formation in more of a loose route.

 

[Douglas]

I get the leans pretty easily when turning after long periods or in nasty turb. I don't know why that is always hard for me to admit, like it's a weakness or something.

Besides concentrating on the instruments it really helps to keep from moving my head, to an extreme. When I read the plate I hold it up so I only have to move my eyes.

I don't know how that could work in your situation. I'm guessing I would get reeeally messed up if I had to do what you did.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Not the leans so much as inducing vertigo with stupid stuff once. Doing consecutive rolls in the -38 and got tired of counting. I slammed the stick to neutral and that was enough to send the fluids coursing. Anyway, slumped in the seat for a bit STARING at the ADI worked but not fun. Actually had a 'sim event' in the 727 when my ADI failed with no flag for a while. It just felt bad. The ADI said I was in a shallow bank but when I checked the STBY and the F/O's we were going through about 35-40deg and rolling. (yes, we had a discussion after landing as to why no one asked the Capt why he was doing acro on the arrival)

 

[wjmiller3]

I get the leans pretty easily when turning after long periods or in nasty turb. I don't know why that is always hard for me to admit, like it's a weakness or something.

Besides concentrating on the instruments it really helps to keep from moving my head, to an extreme. When I read the plate I hold it up so I only have to move my eyes.

I don't know how that could work in your situation. I'm guessing I would get reeeally messed up if I had to do what you did.

Me too...

 

[splash]

I had it under the hood before during my IFR training and once in VFR.

In VFR I was hauling skydivers up to 10,000 following the traffic pattern the whole time. There was a few stacks of cumulus clouds in the area that were not exactly vertical I must say but I made them vertical after rolling out of a turn while climbing thinking that I was holding heading and climbing. It was a strange feeling after glancing at the six pack. I looked down at the ground and it all came together suddenly.

 

[GlenA]

Once with an IFR student in IMC. We made a vor practice approach to the airport and were planning to go missed. As we reached our mins we momentarily popped out of the clouds just as the student began going missed. He abruptly pulled on the controls and rolled hard as we immediately re-entered the cloud layer. I had to take control and move the aircraft back into normal parameters, but as a result of all that abrupt movement we felt like we were tumbling and spinning. Really had to force myself to trust those instruments then....turned into a GREAT lesson though

 

[CFIT99]

I had to take control and move the aircraft back into normal parameters, but as a result of all that abrupt movement we felt like we were tumbling and spinning. Really had to force myself to trust those instruments then....turned into a GREAT lesson though

I'd have to agree that that is one of the best learning situations to have during your IR training. Same exact thing happened to me a few months ago in sold IMC and I could of swore my instruments were wrong compared to what my body was telling me...YOUR SCAN IS SO IMPORTANT HERE. I kept checking to make sure my AI wasn't failing I was feeling it so bad.

I was solo in a semi unfamiliar plane so I was talking to myself...which I find really helps...anyone else do this?

 

[///AMG]

Not really in terms of leans, but yeah I do talk to myself (ie checklists) while I am solo. Just helps me keep up the same habit patterns that I have when I have another person in there with me.

 

[MikeD]

Not really in terms of leans, but yeah I do talk to myself (ie checklists) while I am solo. Just helps me keep up the same habit patterns that I have when I have another person in there with me.

So long as yourself doesn't talk back.

 

[Hacker15e]

Not really in terms of leans, but yeah I do talk to myself (ie checklists) while I am solo. Just helps me keep up the same habit patterns that I have when I have another person in there with me.

Soon, you'll want to shut your manpleaser when in the jet -- gotta listen up for break calls, RWR hits, wingmen taking care of (or missing) their targeting responsibilities, etc.

God gave ya two ears and one mouth for a reason.

 

[t-cart]

Honest question...Do the leans ever leave? Do you get to the point that you don't get them? I don't do much IMC, and I seem to get them as soon as I go in the cloud. This is a real concern to me. can you develop a "tolerance" to them?

PS...I am instrument rated, I just seem to have a problem with this.

 

[///AMG]

Honest question...Do the leans ever leave? Do you get to the point that you don't get them? I don't do much IMC, and I seem to get them as soon as I go in the cloud. This is a real concern to me. can you develop a "tolerance" to them?

PS...I am instrument rated, I just seem to have a problem with this.

I'm going to guess not.....the instructors who we were flying (in my original story that is) with both have several thousand hours in tactical jets, and all 4 of us had varying degrees of it. In regular IMC, one thing I try to do which might help you is transition into the cockpit before you go into the clouds/IMC. That last little rush while going into the goo can certainly do it.