Tired of TFR's? Send the government the bill.

jynxyjoe

jynxyjoe

Queso King
This was sent to the DNC.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f85344f7-566d-4d5c-82d9-5cca9fd6de89&

The Article said:
Jim Gray has submitted a bill to the White House and the Democratic National Committee in the amount of $2565 dollars, representing the business which has been lost at his Oakland Flyers flight school during a campaign fund-raising visit by President Obama.

The visit Thursday night brought a TFR to the Bay area of California from 1700 till 1000 Friday, which meant Gray's fleet sat parked, students had to have their lessons cancelled, and both the flight school and the instructors lost money.

Gray comments, "If it was for something related to global affairs, I'd have no problem with it. But if it's just for fundraising, kind of do it on somebody else's dime."
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Oh man this would be a great precedent. Bill the politicians for shutting down airports, highways, everything. Even at a HUGE rally, only a teeny tiny percentage of the (unemployed) population shows up. The rest are just stuck in traffic trying to get to work or run errands.
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There is still a prohibited area around Crawford Texas even though stupid has not set foot there since his presidency ended, and it is for sale.

Sectionals still put giant white TFR grids up for it too...you know for whenever the president might visit Crawford Texas. Stupid Stupid Stupid.
 
I support it.

I am not a fan if VIP TFRs anyway. TFRs around a wildfire, yeah I get it, but a TFR around a VIP, especially some of those really dumb 1 nm in radius ones.
What is possibly being accomplished? Nothing but violating good citizens that are oblivious to the the TFR. But what about protecting the VIP? I guarantee evil do'er in any single piston could get to any spot inside the VIP TFR before anybody thought to shoot him down. Who thought an evil do'er would possibly be deterred by an invisible boundary, I am sure the evil do'er cares that you will take his certificates away.

Just shutting down airports and violating people who want nothing more than to obey the law.

:soapbox:
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Of course he is. He only ever bought it to look like a good old boy Texan.

He lives in North Dallas now, with a permanent TFR around his house..which is again ludicrous. He is not the President so who really cares.
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It's because he pissed off enough people during his time, that they are still afriad of those who will always be out to get him.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Of course he is. He only ever bought it to look like a good old boy Texan.

He lives in North Dallas now, with a permanent TFR around his house..which is again ludicrous. He is not the President so who really cares.
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I think you can bust it in the pattern at Love. I went in there one day and a 767 on a test hop violated it while in the pattern.
 
Good for him.

Biden lives "5 miles north of the DuPont 005 degree radial" and isn't usually a huge issue, but enough to be a hassel. When he comes in the airport is shut down for a good hour once, twice, sometimes three times a day.
 
I think folks make to big of a deal about the permanent POTUS (or ex POTUS) TFRs. Here's the wording:

AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREA(S) UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC WITHIN A 1 NMR OF 325321N/0964835W OR THE CVE085004.8 UP TO AND INCLUDING 1500 FT AGL

Which means, you can go in it, if talking to ATC, it's a lot like the Beale TFR here in NORCAL, however for the current POTUS TFR I believe the inner ring allows scheduled carrier and cargo flights, but absolutely no GA flights.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Sectionals still put giant white TFR grids up for it too...you know for whenever the president might visit Crawford Texas. Stupid Stupid Stupid.
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I think that is just because it takes a long time to update the sectionals. I don't think the white area is in effect when he goes back to the ranch, just like it isn't in effect in Dallas. Just the P-49 is in effect.
 
He has not been back to the ranch since he left the presidency, according to some local news article I read. And yeah, I know it is due to the sectionals. I just hated his TFR to begin with because it personally interfered in my training for quite some time.
 
mjg407 said:
Which means, you can go in it, if talking to ATC, it's a lot like the Beale TFR here in NORCAL, however for the current POTUS TFR I believe the inner ring allows scheduled carrier and cargo flights, but absolutely no GA flights.
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You're correct. The TFR for the POTUS that I enforced over PHX a few months ago was just that....scheduled 121 for the inner ring ok, but no GA....apart from EMS helos, lifeguard, etc.

The biggest thing I had an issue with was the sheer size of the TFR overall. Someone grazing the 30 mile ring who wasn't even headed to PHX would be in violation and the FAA would be looking for them, or if serious enough, we'd be launched. Complete waste of time, IMO. Second problem would be the TFR effective times, and sometimes active locations, changing with very short notice, as the President's schedule changed. Those changes would be communicated immediately with the FAA, but my question was "how's an average GA guy supposed to keep up with the changes? Say he checks the NOTAM's first thing in the day and plans for the TFRs, but it changes when he's out there flying, unbeknowst to him, and he busts it......to me, he took all reasonable and available pre-planning measures prior to flight, but he'd still be in trouble?"

There needs to be a TFR of some sort, but not the huge chunk of airspace that covered most of the PHX valley, IMHO.
 
MikeD said:
You're correct. The TFR for the POTUS that I enforced over PHX a few months ago was just that....scheduled 121 for the inner ring ok, but no GA....apart from EMS helos, lifeguard, etc.

The biggest thing I had an issue with was the sheer size of the TFR overall. Someone grazing the 30 mile ring who wasn't even headed to PHX would be in violation and the FAA would be looking for them, or if serious enough, we'd be launched. Complete waste of time, IMO. Second problem would be the TFR effective times, and sometimes active locations, changing with very short notice, as the President's schedule changed. Those changes would be communicated immediately with the FAA, but my question was "how's an average GA guy supposed to keep up with the changes? Say he checks the NOTAM's first thing in the day and plans for the TFRs, but it changes when he's out there flying, unbeknowst to him, and he busts it......to me, he took all reasonable and available pre-planning measures prior to flight, but he'd still be in trouble?"

There needs to be a TFR of some sort, but not the huge chunk of airspace that covered most of the PHX valley, IMHO.
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Talk to ATC? I've gone round with my pilots about flight following. ATC should alert you to the fact the TFR has popped up. Also, the very latest TFR info is always up to date here:

www.airspace.nifc.gov with printable WAC and sectional charts.
 
mjg407 said:
Talk to ATC? I've gone round with my pilots about flight following. ATC should alert you to the fact the TFR has popped up. Also, the very latest TFR info is always up to date here:

www.airspace.nifc.gov with printable WAC and sectional charts.
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Agree with talk to ATC. But the only place I could see that not being reasonable would be a guy going by the Class B (in this case) from one airport to another with no intent to enter or really go near it, but unbeknownst to him, the TFR shifted for whatever reason. And since he was going nowhere near the Class B and the associated TFR, he never talked to ATC, since the morning NOTAM check showed no conflict. To me, that's reasonable pre-planning, but still he gets bit. Now if he busted the TFR coming straight into it because he wanted to go to a satellite airport in the Class B, and didn't call ATC or otherwise check NOTAM's, then that would be more of a clean kill to me.
 
Quite honestly, I'd be carefull trusting anything I can find. I have a perfect example.

Recently, we had some airspace shut down for the fire in Filmore CA. I checked the FAA TFR map, and it was still there. I checked the FAA TFR list, and it was gone. I called the number of the controling agency, and it they informed me "we sent all our birds home last night, and told them to cancel it." I called WX Brief, and they said it ws active, and then asked where he was getting his info from, because I was told by point of contact in the TFR txt it was gone. He told me to hold on a second, then came back and said it had been canceled. Great, now who di I trust!? I told them what the controlong agency had told me, and was instructed to call approach. I called Pt Mugu App., and was told it was active. I informed them the TFR according to some was active, and others it was closed. By now, I am trying to figure out who had droped the ball, and told Mugu someone needs to know for sure. He gave me a supervisor's number at LA Center to contact. I called them, and verfied that it was closed, and told him the circle jerk I had just been through, and to call So Cal. APP and Mugu APP to get it fixed before some one gets the number for something they didn't do.


All this was done so a costomer could go fly the Super D in the aero box. Talk about pleasing your costomers. But, long story short, if you ask a breifer, see it on the net, trust that it may not be correct. And of course, the pilot will be the one to get busted, because all the info he had, even from approved sources, was incorrect.
 
mshunter said:
Quite honestly, I'd be carefull trusting anything I can find. I have a perfect example.

Recently, we had some airspace shut down for the fire in Filmore CA. I checked the FAA TFR map, and it was still there. I checked the FAA TFR list, and it was gone. I called the number of the controling agency, and it they informed me "we sent all our birds home last night, and told them to cancel it." I called WX Brief, and they said it ws active, and then asked where he was getting his info from, because I was told by point of contact in the TFR txt it was gone. He told me to hold on a second, then came back and said it had been canceled. Great, now who di I trust!? I told them what the controlong agency had told me, and was instructed to call approach. I called Pt Mugu App., and was told it was active. I informed them the TFR according to some was active, and others it was closed. By now, I am trying to figure out who had droped the ball, and told Mugu someone needs to know for sure. He gave me a supervisor's number at LA Center to contact. I called them, and verfied that it was closed, and told him the circle jerk I had just been through, and to call So Cal. APP and Mugu APP to get it fixed before some one gets the number for something they didn't do.


All this was done so a costomer could go fly the Super D in the aero box. Talk about pleasing your costomers. But, long story short, if you ask a breifer, see it on the net, trust that it may not be correct. And of course, the pilot will be the one to get busted, because all the info he had, even from approved sources, was incorrect.
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I would never trust the dispatcher on a fire TFR..... never. Trust me on that one. They are very slow to get rid of the TFR even after the fire is out.
 
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