Frontier chooses Republic

[Polar742]

Im sick of hearing the little jabs for flying Airbii for 50 seat pay, I wonder what will all the jealous nay sayers will point out once the pay and QOL issues are fixed once our new contract is voted in.

Lots of rhetoric flying around . . . and, I think you're right!

I am sincerely pulling for you guys to get the contract leap that is required.

God Bless.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I am sincerely pulling for you guys to get the contract leap that is required.

God Bless.

Thanks a bunch, wish more would share those thoughts. Seems like alot of people on here are hoping we fail just so they can prove themselves right in some twisted way.

 

[jtrain609]

Thanks a bunch, wish more would share those thoughts. Seems like alot of people on here are hoping we fail just so they can prove themselves right in some twisted way.

Oh don't get me wrong man, I think this is THE OPPORTUNITY to get those rates up, and if you do EVERYBODY is going to be in a better position in the industry.

That being said, I'm not exactly holding out hope that you're going to get a mainline contract, with mainline wages and mainline work rules. It just seems like too much of a stretch, and if the history of the airline industry is any indicator of what the future will hold, you don't stand a chance of actually pulling this off.

 

[surreal1221]

Head in the sand. OOOOK? Who has their head in the sand? There's been a transaction. Two companies are merging and both companies have labor agreements with laborers. Basically, a crapload of employees have just been dumped into a pile and someone is going to have to sort them out. At this point, who has their head in the sand already?

It's a picture.

Posted as a reply to jtrain's statement, which was quoted.

Sorry, can't help you any further.

 

[SoCalAprch]

That being said, I'm not exactly holding out hope that you're going to get a mainline contract, with mainline wages and mainline work rules. It just seems like too much of a stretch, and if the history of the airline industry is any indicator of what the future will hold, you don't stand a chance of actually pulling this off.

When in history has a regional bought two major airlines with major contracts? This gives us more leverage than just negotiating a new "regional" contract. I think it will be on par with what Frontier is working under right now perhaps with some pay increases and some QOL improvements across the board. Time will tell but I can't believe some people see us voting in some crap second hand cut and paste contract. You guys don't think that we at RAH don't realize that this changes everything.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yeah, Southwest was going to staple the Frontier pilots to the bottom of their list. Sounds kinda bad at the face, but what do you think is better? Get stapled to one of the most desired airlin

If it was me, I would have taken the RAH offer. I'm only at about 80% on the AirTran list, but if stapled by SWA, I would drop to 93% and wouldn't see an upgrade for probably 20 years. That sucks, to say the least. Being stapled below guys that aren't even on property and are just in a hiring pool is absolute nonsense. SWAPA is out of their f'ing minds. This level of disrespect for fellow professionals just blows my mind.

I'd volunteer to be stapled to Southwest's list. I'd go work at Mc'y D's for a while till they called me up. That's just me though.

I'm sure you would, but do you think a 10-year F9 Captain that gets whatever schedule he wants would feel the same way? He would not only lose his seat, but would go from the top of the seniority list to virtually the bottom. Ridiculous.

Kuwitzky said the Southwest pilots' offer was to put Frontier pilots at the bottom of the combined seniority list.

= pilot unity

What do you expect from an isolationist union like SWAPA? These guys don't care about anyone but themselves.

Bedford just released his weekly sermon and he mentioned the winning bid and told us that we are going to be integrating all the pilot groups. Also read him on some news clipping saying that the Airbus will be put on some of the heavy west coast MidWest routes. I don't think BB has any intention of selling any of the airlines and every intention of trying to grow them. Hopefully we keep the Frontier name as I believe it has a stronger brand recognition. Maybe a Frontier Airbus to HNL to feed the Mokulele operation...

Glad to see that Bedford isn't trying to weasel his way out of the scope language. Just more proof that scope is everything.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm sure you would, but do you think a 10-year F9 Captain that gets whatever schedule he wants would feel the same way? He would not only lose his seat, but would go from the top of the seniority list to virtually the bottom. Ridiculous.

Hell no.
I'm 28, I could give a crap. I make no judgement on what the Frontier guys did, I just wouldn't do the same thing if it was me. Frontier guys will decide what's best for them. They've got age and longevity on me.

 

[mrivc211]

I will say the way that SWA wanted to deal with the pilots at F9 this is probably going to be best for them. It just seems like SWA only wanted the DEN base and would have tossed the F9 guys out as soon as they could. Lets just hope RAH can get a fair rate for the E190/E175 and start bringing back some decent payrates to the industry.


How are negotiations going? ANY updates from the RAH guys?

From the get-go, SWAPA made it VERY crystal clear that F9 pilots are now SWAPA pilots. SWAPA's priority is the last guy on the list, because if he's protect, they're all protected.

Second, they stated that there would be furloughs from this deal. And that those furloughs would be from F9. Having said that, they would not be on furlough for long. It was SWAPA's intent to launch services to Mexico from California, Florida, New York, in addition to what F9 had, which was SLC and DEN. This ramp up would take some time, my personal guess is 2-3 quarters. It was their belief this would bring the furloughs back, and in addition drain the pool, and they would be hiring off the street fairly quickly.

SWAPA stated that Lynx pilots would be SWAPA pilots. (talk about hit on the head with a gold brick)

My personal opinion?

F9 should of taken that deal.

Reasons why?

Right off the bat, 40% pay raises for FO's to come upto SWAPA pay scale. Hello! 40%. Do the math.

Stability of the top 2 carriers in the USA. Delta is up there with them.

No competing with UAL and SWA in DEN. If this would have happened, UAL would have been heavily crippled in DEN.

Now, what you have is SWA and UAL and AirTran attacking them on every front, dumping the market with low fares. They don't have a vault full of money to withstand this assault.

Yes, they may be independent now, but in the long run, I don't think they will fair well. I think this pilot group would have benefited more hand over fist with this deal. This deal would have virtually gauranteed employement for these pilots for 10 years with SWAPA.

 

[wheelsup]

There was a Frontier pilot posting on our message board, he said him and the rest of the company are much happier with the Republic buyout. FWIW.

 

[falconvalley]

By "short-sighted" I guess I can only take it one way. I had a contract in my hand that was a quantum leap over the previous book. The airline had grown from 200 pilots and 28 tprops to 500 pilots and 50 ERJs with more ERJs on order.

In 2003, you knew BB was the real deal, but if I sat down in June of 2003 and tell you what the airline looked like in 2009, you would have hauled me off for a piss test purely on reasonable suspicion.

Right on...

It's a picture.

Posted as a reply to jtrain's statement, which was quoted.

Sorry, can't help you any further.

Okie dokie

 

[Ralgha]

Hehe, this thread is pretty entertaining. There is no way they're going to get a "mainline" contract, but it doesn't really matter. Frontier is dying, being bought by Republic is not going to change that. The difference now is that when Frontier does die, it's going to take out Republic (and Midwest) with it.

Frontier pilots could have had a pretty secure job in Southwest, now they're basically doomed.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Frontier's been profitable the last few quarters.

 

[rd757]

Midwest already died. All that is alive is the brand name.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Midwest already died. All that is alive is the brand name.

Its sad, their 717 to SFO is a ghost town. I picked up some YX counter-agreement tickets and asked how the loads looked and the AA CSR who handles the flight said "That airline is dying, theres always a ton of seats". Sad to hear of such a nice little carrier.

 

[surreal1221]

Frontier in name only.

 

[FLflyer]

you don't stand a chance of actually pulling this off.

Agree 100%. Would love for them to prove me wrong, not gonna happen.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Hehe, this thread is pretty entertaining. There is no way they're going to get a "mainline" contract, but it doesn't really matter. Frontier is dying, being bought by Republic is not going to change that. The difference now is that when Frontier does die, it's going to take out Republic (and Midwest) with it.

Frontier pilots could have had a pretty secure job in Southwest, now they're basically doomed.

Agree 100%. Would love for them to prove me wrong, not gonna happen.

If you are going to make blanket statements like this please back it up with some sort of logic.

Why do you and everyone else think it is impossible for us to get a good contract? You guys are pretty sure about the fact that we won't get one yet you never explain why.

 

[jtrain609]

If you are going to make blanket statements like this please back it up with some sort of logic.

Why do you and everyone else think it is impossible for us to get a good contract? You guys are pretty sure about the fact that we won't get one yet you never explain why.

Leverage.

In this economy, you have none.

 

[Polar742]

Hehe, this thread is pretty entertaining. There is no way they're going to get a "mainline" contract, but it doesn't really matter. Frontier is dying, being bought by Republic is not going to change that. The difference now is that when Frontier does die, it's going to take out Republic (and Midwest) with it.

Frontier pilots could have had a pretty secure job in Southwest, now they're basically doomed.

Flying 'em at 50 seat wages

Oh don't get me wrong man, I think this is THE OPPORTUNITY to get those rates up, and if you do EVERYBODY is going to be in a better position in the industry.

That being said, I'm not exactly holding out hope that you're going to get a mainline contract, with mainline wages and mainline work rules. It just seems like too much of a stretch, and if the history of the airline industry is any indicator of what the future will hold, you don't stand a chance of actually pulling this off.

Agree 100%. Would love for them to prove me wrong, not gonna happen.

This is what's disheartening as of late on this site. Why is everyone already defeated, or wishing ill-will?

Sure, a "regional" that has over 200 airplanes bought 2 carriers in tough times.

Who bought up the Pan Am and Eastern remnants to leave a role of domestic carrier and became the largest airline in the world? Man, if I could only remember.

Look, in 2003, we were put on blast because of what everyone else who didn't work at RAH saw as deficiencies in the contract. It's continued to today, as witnessed on this site.

Then, two threads down, everyone is lamenting the scope issues. Well, guess what? We laid it down on the scope with tying the holding company's hands. Even in 2003, you could see the ramifications of the type of scope. Just about 3 seconds of thinking, and one would realize that no "wholly-owned but separate list" companies would exist. It'd all be on one list for the company. There would be no "Eagle" pilots, only "American" pilots. No "Comair" and "ASA" (at that time) pilots, only "Delta" pilots.

So, the jobs are secure. Step one done. They can't even whipsaw within the company. "Oh, you don't want to fly them at this rate? Guess what, the other guys will."

Step two: Supporting a contract that is required for the position of the company. RAH wasn't a regional when I left in 2007. We were flying mainline equipment with the EJets. Now, with 3 independent brands in the portfolio (Midwest, Frontier and Mukelele) they are without a doubt, a coast-to-coast network carrier.

As much as the pilot group is openly disrespected on pretty much all online forums, they never get the credit for making a scope clause that prevents this from being a Lornezo-like whipsaw shell game.

If YOU want the ability to have "career potential" again, YOU had better sack up and support the RAH pilots. Like it, love it, or hate it, Bedford is the rare game changer. The game IS changing and there's nothing you can do to stop it. The "Holding Company" format is here. Now is the time to make sure your recognize it. It's been underway for 10+ years, but no one has mastered it like BB. So, this is the very foundation for getting hired at an entry level and retiring off a major aircraft.

Let's say RAH falls apart like many of you wish. If the foundation for one pilot group isn't the standard, then it goes back to what it has been for the last 30+ years prior to holding company scope.

However, there will be imitators. The holding companies will own a diverse portfolio aircraft, from the feeders to the largest jets.

Right now, let's look at RAH's fleet:

1) Q400s
2) E 135/140/145
3) E170/175/190
4) A318/319

It's just a small jump from there to the fleet in 2014 (my SWAG)

1) Q400
2) E 135/140/145 (smallest % of fleet IMHO)
3) E170/175/190
4) A318/319/320/321(?)
5) A330

Why the airbuses? It fits BB's MO. Commonality.

F9 makes an OPERATIONAL PROFIT. Very Important

YX has a codeshare with DL. Very Important.

Mukelele has good cargo loads (I got it from a bud inside RAH. Yes, his paygrade makes the info valid). Very Important

If it was me, I would have taken the RAH offer. I'm only at about 80% on the AirTran list, but if stapled by SWA, I would drop to 93% and wouldn't see an upgrade for probably 20 years. That sucks, to say the least. Being stapled below guys that aren't even on property and are just in a hiring pool is absolute nonsense. SWAPA is out of their f'ing minds. This level of disrespect for fellow professionals just blows my mind.
...I'm sure you would, but do you think a 10-year F9 Captain that gets whatever schedule he wants would feel the same way? He would not only lose his seat, but would go from the top of the seniority list to virtually the bottom. Ridiculous....

I agree with that 100% Todd.

Glad to see that Bedford isn't trying to weasel his way out of the scope language. Just more proof that scope is everything.

That's a great point. Now the jobs are secure, they have even more leverage as one pilot group. This is a risky position for BB right now. I'm sure he knows a strike would be the death knell for RAH.


Sorry for the terseness of the post, but to see people chastise the RAH pilots to get a better contract 6 months ago to saying they can't get what they NEED to get based on things their boss has done is pathetic.

It reeks more of jealousy than the idea of paying it forward.

Personally, my union is fighting a huge contract battle. We are looking to get holding company scope, since our overlords have a huge whammy sitting in Ireland holding out for crew leasing.

I can only hope we can have the same scope I had at RAH.

 

[Polar742]

Leverage.

In this economy, you have none.

Yes they do. Right now, they have as much leverage as they need. BB won't let the company be shut down after all the work he's done.

One pilot group, and if they strike, RAH is done.