Failed Checkride Poll (anonymous)

C150J

C150J

Well-Known Member
I am in the midst of discussions with our HR folks concerning hiring and failed rides. Obviously, we aren't conducting interviews at the moment, but upcoming changes might alter the way we pre-screen applicants. I am trying to come up with a comprehensive presentation that shows that numbers possibly lie. I would rather shift our focus on quality of training/education, format of training, and other variables that could play into checkride failures.

Thanks!
 
I don't think I would be so concerned about checkride failures during the process of getting your ratings. (Unless you failed every ride from private of MEI. :) ) Lots of failures in your 135 or 121 career is another story in my book. That seems to be what you are focusing on in this poll.
 
Lol. Lotta nevers hu?:rotfl:

I failed some stuff. Not on any special FAA watchdog list or anything. I did a lot of 141 stuff though. Failed my CFI or II I can't remember which because I got sick in steep turns under the hood after some partial panel stuff. Lesson I learned... EAT something every once in a while, amazing how much better ur performance is!
 
C150J said:
I am in the midst of discussions with our HR folks concerning hiring and failed rides. Obviously, we aren't conducting interviews at the moment, but upcoming changes might alter the way we pre-screen applicants. I am trying to come up with a comprehensive presentation that shows that numbers possibly lie. I would rather shift our focus on quality of training/education, format of training, and other variables that could play into checkride failures.

Thanks!
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From my experience check rides do not tell the whole story, unless they have a pattern of failures like multiple failures in a year for example. There are thousands and thousands of pilots that have failed check rides both in their primary training and in-house that are fine. Everyone that has failed something will tell you that it was for a stupid little thing that maybe fell out of the PT standards, everyone has their bad days,
 
No, never.

(Which should mean, no, not yet.)

The odds are stacked against us. Considering the number of evaluations, in a 40+ year career, that's over 80 training events not including upgrade or transition training. While I'm sure most, if not all, of us do everything in our power to do our best during every evaluation - it's just bound to happen that we'll dick something up eventually.
 
surreal1221 said:
No, never.

(Which should mean, no, not yet.)

The odds are stacked against us. Considering the number of evaluations, in a 40+ year career, that's over 80 training events not including upgrade or transition training. While I'm sure most, if not all, of us do everything in our power to do our best during every evaluation - it's just bound to happen that we'll dick something up eventually.
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That is a good way to look at it. You could go to your annual/bi-annual SIM check completely unstudied and unprepared and still pass. ( I would STRONGLY advise against this. As most SIM instructors I know can smell a slacker student a mile away and will eat you alive. :D) Yet you could study for a month before and still have a bone head moment and thus a bad PC.
 
I haven't...yet. Every time I go up for recurrent or another training event, I just wonder if THIS will be my first bust. So far, so good. :D
 
I had to re-do my soft-field takeoff and a GPS approach for my Commercial certificate. I was at a 141 school, so it was a stage check, not a pink slip. I still consider it a "failure" in my own eyes, regardless of how it's officially viewed.
 
I busted my CFI twice during my training and I'm not embarrassed about it at all.

In fact I'd be happy to tell a hiring board, TV camera, or anyone seated in an exit row the story because it made me a better aviator.

Hell, I even share that story with my students.
 
This is an interesting poll with a lot of options but I'd like to see one for pilots who are CFI's. Another poll I'd like to see is one for airline pilots who did or didnt' do CFI stuff before getting a job.

I'll set those up.
 
It can be easy to unsat something in the 121 and 135 world. You can have the best ride of your life and unsat one item. Take two minutes to "retrain."...(ie..get your stuff together), come back and nail it. Is that considered a checkride failure?
 
It surprises me that there are so many on the never list, but then I'm on the multiple list..... ;) I've honestly gotten out of the habit though - no busts in 4 years now!

For those who think it can't happen, here are a few examples of how easy it is:

Private pilot - pt 141 first stage check (prior to solo) - did not pull out my checklist when demonstrating an emergency landing

Instrument (pt 141 final stage check) - last approach, last landing - I went 10 feet below MDA on an NDB approach.

Commercial Multi - last approach, last landing, single engine - I failed to verbalize that I was feathering the prop.

CFII - last approach, last landing, single engine - went below a step down fix while turning final. Was still rather disoriented from doing the Vmc demo for my MEI during the same ride in full IMC.

Every single one of those were my fault and I certainly take ownership for them, but for those on the never list, it's really easy to join the multiple list! I do plan on extending my bustless streak for a few more years though :D
 
So you guys are considering 141 stage checks as failures, when they have no ramifications on your certificate and are not being conducted by a DPE or FAA Examiner?

I think that's a little harsh on yourself and may be muddying up the poll results.

So you bust a stage check, big deal. You still have your certificate and you retrain, on your dime. You bust an FAA required practical (checkride) and you're pink slipped . . . now that's a failure.
 
gtpilot said:
It surprises me that there are so many on the never list, but then I'm on the multiple list..... ;) I've honestly gotten out of the habit though - no busts in 4 years now!

For those who think it can't happen, here are a few examples of how easy it is:

Private pilot - pt 141 first stage check (prior to solo) - did not pull out my checklist when demonstrating an emergency landing

Instrument (pt 141 final stage check) - last approach, last landing - I went 10 feet below MDA on an NDB approach.

Commercial Multi - last approach, last landing, single engine - I failed to verbalize that I was feathering the prop.

CFII - last approach, last landing, single engine - went below a step down fix while turning final. Was still rather disoriented from doing the Vmc demo for my MEI during the same ride in full IMC.

Every single one of those were my fault and I certainly take ownership for them, but for those on the never list, it's really easy to join the multiple list! I do plan on extending my bustless streak for a few more years though :D
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A perfect example of how 1) subjective checkrides can be and 2) we all can be 1 word or 10 ft from a bust.

Good post.
 
surreal1221 said:
So you guys are considering 141 stage checks as failures, when they have no ramifications on your certificate and are not being conducted by a DPE or FAA Examiner?

I think that's a little harsh on yourself and may be muddying up the poll results.

So you bust a stage check, big deal. You still have your certificate and you retrain, on your dime. You bust an FAA required practical (checkride) and you're pink slipped . . . now that's a failure.
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I think some of the plans being discussed look at ALL records, to include 141 stage checks.
 
Plans? What plans?

The poll above asks about checkrides which to me mean FAA practical exams performed by a DPA or FAA Examiner. Not 141 stage checks conducted by a CFI.

C150J's plans w/ HR? If that's the plan, then I would recommend he not focus deep down to 141 stage checks. What about the Part 61 student who took 20-100% longer than FAA requirements to receive a certificate or add-on? We going to look at them as well?

Personally I'd be a bit more concerned with the undocumented continuation of additional training to someone in the Part 61 environment versus one or two stage check failures during the course of multiple Part 141 training. I'm sure all of us instructors are well aware of one or two students who took double the amount of time needed to understand a concept or to meet standards and we just couldn't convince them to throw the towel in, protect themselves, and the flying public. Nah, eventually after enough money was spent they were able to eek out a "PASS."

Muh - anyway. pseudo-rant over.

Trouble is, the Part 61 numb-toes who take forever and can't fly worth a crap will never be spotted because such records of training issues are not necessarily easily accessible to hiring departments. I also have an issue with Part 141 documentation used during flight training in the hands of Company A being used by Company B to evaluate a candidate for a position.

These companies, while using current hiring practices, need to look inward at finding proper examination strategies and techniques rather then looking to sift through stacks of 141 paperwork with a candidate's application. The time drain that'll have is laughable.
 
surreal1221 said:
So you guys are considering 141 stage checks as failures, when they have no ramifications on your certificate and are not being conducted by a DPE or FAA Examiner?

I think that's a little harsh on yourself and may be muddying up the poll results.

So you bust a stage check, big deal. You still have your certificate and you retrain, on your dime. You bust an FAA required practical (checkride) and you're pink slipped . . . now that's a failure.
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I'm not sure anyone is considering 141 checks a failure - I did add a couple on to show how arbitrary it can be, but I also have the unfortunate privilege of having three pink slips - just none since I started earning my pay (however meager). Personally, I expect to fail again some time, not because I doubt my abilities but because there are too many gotchas. The captain I did my last PC with busted his upgrade because, no joke, he was taxiing too fast on the ramp to start the check ride.

Besides, isn't every good pilot their own worst critic? :p
 
Exactly.

It's not "No, never." to the answer.

Just based off of the number of training events we will participate in while at only ONE company, much less two or three companies, the odds are not in one's favor as far as never failing a checkride or PC.
 
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