TXaviator
Well-Known Member
not really sure who youre talking to here. care to clarify?
Flight Instructor Pay
- Thread starter CRJDriver
- Start date
not really sure who youre talking to here. care to clarify?
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
fair enough. my comment was more aimed at tools who sit around and let UND screw them with the guise of "its paying your dues"
paying dues by agreeing to be paid substandard wages? riiiiight.
Even though I'm a brand new instructor, I'm standing for all of us when I say that we are professionals and our time should be valued as such. We are providing a service in the most regulated industry in the world. I don't know about the rest of you but I had to walk through hell to get mine, and I am NOT settling for less.
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
I highly believe that flight instructors at any accredited 141 school should have their CFI's be on salary. If you're making a commitment to teach for 6 months or a year at a time, minimum, you should be salary.
Now I do say the pay should start at 28,000/yr, but after 1000 dual given the industry average should be 50-60,000 year.
Now I do say the pay should start at 28,000/yr, but after 1000 dual given the industry average should be 50-60,000 year.
av8or91
Well-Known Member
What would you say for people who just have 1-2 students and are brand new instructors? Should they still be salaried?
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
Absolutely, this is a teaching job. If you're on a student by student basis, then go on a contract. This $10.00/hr for flight only is bull. What about all the weather checking, and the paperwork, phone calls, and policy agreements.
You go to work at McDonalds and you're paid the minute you start working to the minute you stop. There's not .1 hamburger flipping and .2 fry station.
I do agree with a contract per student, say each week nets you $300 per student if you meet 5 times a week. This goes with the average number of weeks to finish. If you go over, well you're not getting paid that week as it's a contract, you were already paid. Your incentive is to keep them on track to grab new students or more students.
For those of us assigned 4 student for 6 days a week, making $10,000-$18,000/yr is just not alright.
You go to work at McDonalds and you're paid the minute you start working to the minute you stop. There's not .1 hamburger flipping and .2 fry station.
I do agree with a contract per student, say each week nets you $300 per student if you meet 5 times a week. This goes with the average number of weeks to finish. If you go over, well you're not getting paid that week as it's a contract, you were already paid. Your incentive is to keep them on track to grab new students or more students.
For those of us assigned 4 student for 6 days a week, making $10,000-$18,000/yr is just not alright.
CRJDriver
Well-Known Member
If you guys want to go to the airlines, then you better get used to it. You don't get paid either for pre-flight, programing FMS, doing paperwork, etc.
I do agree with all of you guys about instructor pay! Personally, I think being a CFI is the hardest job in the aviation industry, and we all know CFIs are underpaid. However, there are some good flight schools that do it right and are actually able to retain their CFIs for a while, because the pay and QOL is good.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
UND is one of them......
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
I am not a fan of schedule padding either. Where you are basically overbooking your day and cut some lessons short to ensure you get 8 hours a day.
I feel that the students are number 1 and I need to have the availability to go longer if needed to get them their proficiency. I know a lot of guys that break $28,000 a year by working 8 hours a day 6 days a week. But here's the thing, 25-35K is really the max at UND when you consider winter, 102's and IFR days, and MX flights.
We go through a lot to make ourselves available, and it's like saying in any other industry that you can make 100K a year, but 99% of people make 25K. I'm not a fan of "you have a high hourly rate, work more hours" to turn around a say "why isn't your student proficient yet."
You can have quality and quantity to a point. For the sake of QOL though, salary would be much easier, or a guaranteed pay based on hourly rate and students. Say 10 hours a week per full time student, and 6 hours a week for part time student. You work more, you get paid more. December $200 paychecks suck.
I feel that the students are number 1 and I need to have the availability to go longer if needed to get them their proficiency. I know a lot of guys that break $28,000 a year by working 8 hours a day 6 days a week. But here's the thing, 25-35K is really the max at UND when you consider winter, 102's and IFR days, and MX flights.
We go through a lot to make ourselves available, and it's like saying in any other industry that you can make 100K a year, but 99% of people make 25K. I'm not a fan of "you have a high hourly rate, work more hours" to turn around a say "why isn't your student proficient yet."
You can have quality and quantity to a point. For the sake of QOL though, salary would be much easier, or a guaranteed pay based on hourly rate and students. Say 10 hours a week per full time student, and 6 hours a week for part time student. You work more, you get paid more. December $200 paychecks suck.
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
Oh, and the majority of the reason that UND retains their CFI's is the economy at the moment, and students that haven't finished school yet but have gotten their CFI.
There are some that truly enjoy this job and have their costs low enough to make it work. However, $29,000 for a lead flight instructor is a joke! Now more in line is a ground school instructor at UND which starts at $49,000 a year and works up. That's at least what leads should make as you've really always got to be on your A game. A ground instructor can get a ton of prep time. In flight, anything can pop up at anytime.
There are some that truly enjoy this job and have their costs low enough to make it work. However, $29,000 for a lead flight instructor is a joke! Now more in line is a ground school instructor at UND which starts at $49,000 a year and works up. That's at least what leads should make as you've really always got to be on your A game. A ground instructor can get a ton of prep time. In flight, anything can pop up at anytime.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
well fully paid family healthcare is easily worth probably what 5-6,000/yr? that is a huge cost, so essentially we do pay for it by getting paid a little less maybe but it is worth it. ground instructors don't make 49,000 last time i looked, it was more like 35,000 unless that has changed in the last 8months
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
If you're lucky and keeping a padded schedule it's 35,000/yr. The fair majority of us are below 20. If you're above that, kudos, but there are a lot of us that have the "focus on the students you have drill" even when they run out of cash or just loose interest.
Oh, and our healthcare is NOT top notch. It covers the emergencies and most office visits. However, they have a very low lifetime maximum comparatively, so if you get in a major accident, don't count on it. Leaving out things like the chiropractor when we sit in a seat that bumps all day does not leave a sense of being taken care of.
Overall, we could be getting paid more of what we charge the students. I'm glad tuition is low, but that's cutting our paychecks, not the ground instructors. If you're making 35/yr, then with how much you're working you should be getting paid 50K/yr. I'm assuming you work the 14day weeks with 1 off every 15?
For those of us not doing stage checks, it's very hard to fill the gaps most days. There are students that pop up, but if you already have all but one slot filled, it's unlikely it fits. There are many of us stage check qualified as well, but there's no movement away from UND so we are stuck with the students we have. Some weeks that's great, others it's horrible. Stage checks seem to fill in the gaps and make up for slow weeks.
Oh, and our healthcare is NOT top notch. It covers the emergencies and most office visits. However, they have a very low lifetime maximum comparatively, so if you get in a major accident, don't count on it. Leaving out things like the chiropractor when we sit in a seat that bumps all day does not leave a sense of being taken care of.
Overall, we could be getting paid more of what we charge the students. I'm glad tuition is low, but that's cutting our paychecks, not the ground instructors. If you're making 35/yr, then with how much you're working you should be getting paid 50K/yr. I'm assuming you work the 14day weeks with 1 off every 15?
For those of us not doing stage checks, it's very hard to fill the gaps most days. There are students that pop up, but if you already have all but one slot filled, it's unlikely it fits. There are many of us stage check qualified as well, but there's no movement away from UND so we are stuck with the students we have. Some weeks that's great, others it's horrible. Stage checks seem to fill in the gaps and make up for slow weeks.
TheShocker
Well-Known Member
Not to defend UND health care coverage or policy, but chiropractors practice alternative medicine and the science behind their methods are a little sketchy. The American Medical Association considers them an "unscientific cult."
http://www.skepdic.com/chiro.html
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
Basically the health care covers emergency and illnesses. Chronic medicine is not included. Flying everyday comes with some extra creeks in the joints. It'd be nice not to have it get to where you've got to cancel a flight due to pain.
Now with that being said, we've got a young group of instructors and that's not really a problem. I do know a few instructors that do have to pay their own way through chiropractic care. Granted, that's their choice, but we don't actually have health insurance. We have a group health plan that costs are taken out of a fund. So it's managed like health insurance, but if the cash runs out, it runs out for everyone. Not ideal.
Now with that being said, we've got a young group of instructors and that's not really a problem. I do know a few instructors that do have to pay their own way through chiropractic care. Granted, that's their choice, but we don't actually have health insurance. We have a group health plan that costs are taken out of a fund. So it's managed like health insurance, but if the cash runs out, it runs out for everyone. Not ideal.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
my mother works for BCBS and her plan doesn't cover that stuff either. most places don't. according to her the plan UND is on (same plan the rest of the state of ND gets, is one of the better around). in my experience coming from a plan with my parents to this one, it isn't too much different.
i try my hardest not to work 13 days in a row, some times it happens, but overall i try to take 4-5 days off a month. which yeah, not great, but when i average 5-6hr days, scheduled well, it isnt bad. normal 40hrs/week salary would only get you 8days off a month
i try my hardest not to work 13 days in a row, some times it happens, but overall i try to take 4-5 days off a month. which yeah, not great, but when i average 5-6hr days, scheduled well, it isnt bad. normal 40hrs/week salary would only get you 8days off a month
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
Yeah,
I still have enough 102's that a scheduled 50 hr week ends up being 30 hrs. With 221/222 it's way better. Right now, my 323's are killing me with the MX week and the broken cloud layers have been killing our steep spirals.
I think I've hit my limit for student farming. I think I've got a year till PUBNAT 8 picks me up and I go ATC. Then I can instruct on the weekends and enjoy it more again. Or rather not feel horrible if I get MX and worry about food money.
However, still very happy that I have a job, and that I get to have fun with my students doing it. The happiest flight instructors I know though out here have a second job that pays the bills.
I really feel bad for those that just graduated. There's really nothing out there, not even really jobs at UND. We've got a few this August but not at the same level we've had before.
I still have enough 102's that a scheduled 50 hr week ends up being 30 hrs. With 221/222 it's way better. Right now, my 323's are killing me with the MX week and the broken cloud layers have been killing our steep spirals.
I think I've hit my limit for student farming. I think I've got a year till PUBNAT 8 picks me up and I go ATC. Then I can instruct on the weekends and enjoy it more again. Or rather not feel horrible if I get MX and worry about food money.
However, still very happy that I have a job, and that I get to have fun with my students doing it. The happiest flight instructors I know though out here have a second job that pays the bills.
I really feel bad for those that just graduated. There's really nothing out there, not even really jobs at UND. We've got a few this August but not at the same level we've had before.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
yeah man. im putting aviation on the shelf. pursuing other things for a while/few years.
no jobs. period. one or two few and very far between for horrible pay. whatever. not worth it. got bills to pay.
CRJDriver
Well-Known Member
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
Ding! Fries are done. Ding! Fries are done. Would you like an apple pie?
Double quote for the win!
You know Mcdonalds is hiring managers right now in Grand Forks. Pay is starting around 35K... can combine both quotes into one solution.
I wouldn't exactly call it putting food on the table but it is putting money in the bank.
Otherwise... there's always truck driving (if you're willing for long distance trips).