Hot: Air France Jet Missing (AF 447)

Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Jimmy_Norton said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the possibility of a bomb going off.......
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Usually with an incident like that, someone takes credit for it. What good is it to commit a terrorist act if no one knows it was a terrorist act?
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Jimmy_Norton said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the possibility of a bomb going off.......
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I have no doubt that the relevant govt offices and agencies are considering the possibility of terrorism or sabotage. However, absent specific evidence it can be dangerous on numerous levels to publicly speculate that a mass intentional homicide occurred.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Center_Mid said:
Some speculation is centering on a fire ignited by a short circuit, as occurred aboard the Swissair (Swiss Int'l?) MD-11 in 1998. I was amazed to learn from the reporting that nearly all airliners are fitted with fire detectors or sensors only in the engines, cargo compartments, and the lavs. I would think it would be helpful to have additional detectors in the cabin/galleys and perhaps automatic ACARS reports of fire detections.
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There was smoke and warnings on SwissAir 111. The crew was working through checklists trying to find the problem but with a cabin fire, finding the actual source can be very frustrating with the pneumatics, the interior, etc. And when you can find it, getting at it may be very difficult. In galleys and the cabin you will have smoke and fumes indicating the problem.

Still, with a fire, there is an evolution and speculation would be it would also trigger additional ACARs messaging as systems failed.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

wheelsup said:
Yeah I am aware of Trammell's and Gwinn's recommendations, however they generally mention 18k-25k, which is what I was wondering when you mentioned 30k. One guy I know recommended decreasing the gain -1 for tropical wx and increasing it for places like Denver. What are your thoughts on that?

Or is it better to stick with the altitude method?
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Trammell is not worth commenting on, suffice to say that his stuff might be good if you don't aspire to fly anything larger than a Beech Baron.

If you read or listen more closely to what Dave had to say, you'd recall that it was temperature, season and geographically dependent. 18k is pretty low, unless it's winter time (as I previously stated). 25k is good for the U.S. (outside FLA, most seasons), but is not worth much in the tropics where the equatorial low pressure coupled with unlimited moisture makes 25k just normal rain, most of the time.

As I said, you need to consider the conditions. In the region of the accident, I'd be looking to scan closer to 30k in terms of avoidance, although I'd normally be looking at stuff lower as well. As I approached the system, if it's a fairly solid area, I'd be tilting up a bit. If there is not water above 30k in the tropics, it's very unlikely to be a TS. Too warm for it to freeze that low if it got pushed up at a rate that indicated convective activity.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

wheelsup said:
Yeah I am aware of Trammell's and Gwinn's recommendations, however they generally mention 18k-25k, which is what I was wondering when you mentioned 30k. One guy I know recommended decreasing the gain -1 for tropical wx and increasing it for places like Denver. What are your thoughts on that?

Or is it better to stick with the altitude method?
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I neglected to mention the gain. I do increase it to help ensure I don't miss stuff, particularly if I suspect it could be frozen. I vary the gain, the tilt and consider climate to gain as full a picture as I can. Doesn't mean I haven't missed stuff, but it doesn't happen often!
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

That was an FMS issue.

Somehow class A software made to filter out crap FMS data couldn't and the other 2 FMS's information wasn't used.

Last I heard they were trying to blame it on a bluetooth mouse.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

jynxyjoe said:
That was an FMS issue.

Somehow class A software made to filter out crap FMS data couldn't and the other 2 FMS's information wasn't used.

Last I heard they were trying to blame it on a bluetooth mouse.
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What?!?

An FMS does not have any direct relation to the flight control computers.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

mjg407 said:
Is there a GPS tracker on Airlines? We have them on all the US tankers for flight following, not sure what the cost is to the Government.
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Not as far as I know.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Agreed, read it on Aero-news. *shrug*

Edit: that was a few months back. I just remember talking about it with some colleagues trying to figure out how transients off a blue tooth mouse were going to effect a double shielded bundle. Basically we were wondering if we could tied a 24V battery into a mouse and see if we could transmit it with enough intensity to cause some sterilization.

Second edit: You know, the article might have said flight control computer too. It was so long ago. Long story short, they were blaming the thing on a wireless mouse.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

I didn't even see that other post about the Qantas incident. Thanks anyway. :)
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Cptnchia said:
Usually with an incident like that, someone takes credit for it. What good is it to commit a terrorist act if no one knows it was a terrorist act?
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Precisely.

Hell, I'm surprised some terrorist group hasn't claimed it just to get some attention.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Socal321 said:
AF said the airplane computer relayed loss of pressurization.
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Could be related to the electrical issue. In the ERJ for instance if we lost our generators (all 5) and are down to battery power, we're not staying pressurized.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Baronman said:
Could be related to the electrical issue. In the ERJ for instance if we lost our generators (all 5) and are down to battery power, we're not staying pressurized.
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Eh? It's been a while since I went to the school house, but if that happens then the pressurization systems goes into manual mode and you now control both outflow valves with the little knob on the center pedestal eh? Doesn't that thing run off the backup battery bus?


Or am I completely mistaken and is it now REALLY obvious that I dequalled like...9 months ago.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

mjg407 said:
Is there a GPS tracker on Airlines? We have them on all the US tankers for flight following, not sure what the cost is to the Government.
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Not exactly the same thing, but most of those ACMS messages they mentioned were transmitted have header information that includes things like the aircraft registration, flight number, date/time, weight, and usually a Lat/Long and Altitude.

The reports are just plain text in a fixed-width format, and the content and trigger conditions can be customized by the operator. So, the common header fields (including position) may or may not have been present in an electrical fault report.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

seagull said:
As I said, you need to consider the conditions. In the region of the accident, I'd be looking to scan closer to 30k in terms of avoidance, although I'd normally be looking at stuff lower as well. As I approached the system, if it's a fairly solid area, I'd be tilting up a bit. If there is not water above 30k in the tropics, it's very unlikely to be a TS. Too warm for it to freeze that low if it got pushed up at a rate that indicated convective activity.
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When you say "not water above 30k" are you referring to a level 3/4 return or any return in general (also level 1)?

Also I find even storms that are painting level 2 at 25k produce lightning. I assume these aren't nearly as hazardous to us as level 4 storm but still something I noticed.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Jimmy_Norton said:
There is a very good article in this months B/CA about using the radar above FL300. Short version is they say you need to tilt it down, because the tops of the storms are mostly ice, and do not paint very well.
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Yeah you are supposed to aim the beam at 18k-25k depending on who you listen to, I saw a Honeywell presentation that even mentioned 15k but that seems a little low. Although that's why I'm picking seagull's brain about this because of his technique in different parts of the world, good stuff to know!
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

This crash really saddens me for some reason. Modern airliners just aren't "supposed" to crash in midflight like that.:(

I had a weird dream last night before I even heard all of this. I was on a flight somewhere over the Atlantic and somehow there was this open air observation deck in the tail section (don't ask me how I could breathe). I went out there and it was breathtakingly beautiful. There were huge thunderheads jutting into a brilliant blue sky, vast expanses of the ocean below, and other airliners filling the air with a chest ratting kind of song. I crap you not, an Air France jet flew by (an A380 though) and I felt this deep sadness and I saluted her as she soared by. I felt like I would never see her again. Later I was on another plane and it just couldn't land. It kept circling and circling and I knew my number was up. Then I woke up. When I heard the actual news this morning, it just felt so odd.
 
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