Hot: Air France Jet Missing (AF 447)

Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Yeah it sounds like it takes in "air data" from the airplane (ie P/S TAS etc) and has an Inertial Ref Unit (something fancy with Ring Laser Gyros and the like) that requires (or perchance through a GPS) a starting set of "gate coordinates" ie where the a/c is parked, then, based, on accelerations in the x/y/z planes calculates with great precision where exactly the aircraft is.


Okay thanks a lot, that's really interesting.


Anyone know what exactly is being done now to help/search for this plane? Has any navy or air force besides Brazil's agreed to go in and try to help or something? The US doing anything?
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

So sad. RIP to all. I can honestly say I have already learned a lot of interesting information from this thread.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

This story has a very strange vibe to it. The lack of any substantive info is quite odd given the amount of time that has passed. Granted we are dealing with a french airline and the french government which might explain the tightlipped nature of things and we are talking about a jet over the ocean but I find there to be something rather disquieting about the quiet here.

Latest from reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE55062720090601

What's your take then?

I welcome that that misinformation and speculation that usually ties up all news channels is kept to a minimum on this one. There are no exciting pictures to show over and over while half (or less) assed reports are given by people that don't have the first clue what they're talking about.

The only way we'll ever know anything is if the FDR is found.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

To 'lose' all electric sources you would have to 'lose' both engine generators (IDGs), not be able to use the APU, have the RAT fail AND 'loose' the battery also. Even then you have some pitch control through the trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS), rudder via cables (WHAT?) and roll with differential thrust via FADEC engines.

As for the ACARs reports, we are getting very sketchy information. Self-monitoring, self-diagnostics and self-reporting systems are not going to send a message of "There is an electrical problem." More likely is "#1 IDG failure, over-voltage...on and on" so there is no trouble shooting on the ground and mechanics scrambling for the manual and parts.

Second, most pressurization systems go through a degradation of auto, stby, manual if not more with dual channels. And even then outflow valves will close when certain values are reached.

Also, some are noting that the AF plane was preceded and followed by other aircraft that reported no problems. Yes, weather is dynamic and so it is completely possible for one airplane to transit an area with no problem and the next one have a helluva ride. Remember airplanes landed in front and made approaches behind the Delta 1011 at DFW.

As joejinx has noted, it is unlikely that a lightning strike brought this machine down but the real problem, in these deep waters is going to be finding and retrieving the FDR and CVR. If any thing seems certain, it is that this one is going to be difficult to solve.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Just as a heads up, World News Tonight is running a story any minute now.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

As joejinx has noted, it is unlikely that a lightning strike brought this machine down but the real problem, in these deep waters is going to be finding and retrieving the FDR and CVR. If any thing seems certain, it is that this one is going to be difficult to solve.

I think the last large airliner actually brought down by a lightning strike was PanAm 214, a B-707, on 8 Dec 1963. Lightining strike on the left wing detonated the fuel tank in that part of the wing while the jet was in a holding pattern over Maryland.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

This story has a very strange vibe to it. The lack of any substantive info is quite odd given the amount of time that has passed. Granted we are dealing with a french airline and the french government which might explain the tightlipped nature of things and we are talking about a jet over the ocean but I find there to be something rather disquieting about the quiet here.

Latest from reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE55062720090601

What you think it should be solved by now? Perhaps the folks at AF and the French Pres should call you personally to explain what they know?

I suppose it's not surprising with today's 5 minute "sound bite" news cycle people have the attention span of a gnat.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

I think the last large airliner actually brought down by a lightning strike was PanAm 214, a B-707, on 8 Dec 1963. Lightining strike on the left wing detonated the fuel tank in that part of the wing while the jet was in a holding pattern over Maryland.

And for that explosion, you need an empty tank with fumes.

Lots of a/c get hit and continue. This one is going to be difficult to solve.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

To 'lose' all electric sources you would have to 'lose' both engine generators (IDGs), not be able to use the APU, have the RAT fail AND 'loose' the battery also. Even then you have some pitch control through the trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS), rudder via cables (WHAT?) and roll with differential thrust via FADEC engines.

As for the ACARs reports, we are getting very sketchy information. Self-monitoring, self-diagnostics and self-reporting systems are not going to send a message of "There is an electrical problem." More likely is "#1 IDG failure, over-voltage...on and on" so there is no trouble shooting on the ground and mechanics scrambling for the manual and parts.

Second, most pressurization systems go through a degradation of auto, stby, manual if not more with dual channels. And even then outflow valves will close when certain values are reached.

Also, some are noting that the AF plane was preceded and followed by other aircraft that reported no problems. Yes, weather is dynamic and so it is completely possible for one airplane to transit an area with no problem and the next one have a helluva ride. Remember airplanes landed in front and made approaches behind the Delta 1011 at DFW.

As joejinx has noted, it is unlikely that a lightning strike brought this machine down but the real problem, in these deep waters is going to be finding and retrieving the FDR and CVR. If any thing seems certain, it is that this one is going to be difficult to solve.

Very interesting! It would seem that a whole lot of stuff would have had to have gone wrong for this airplane to have been brought down, based on what you've said.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

And for that explosion, you need an empty tank with fumes.

Lots of a/c get hit and continue. This one is going to be difficult to solve.

Agree. 214 was a very rare occurance. Unlike how the media wants to portray lightning strikes.
 
AirFrance A330 Crash...

My sympathy goes out to all of those who lost family and friends on that flight.

Reading the reports from the news and understanding that they don't always know it all I had a question in regards to the reports from the airline CEO.

They keep saying that they received an automated/automatic message from the aircraft saying they had lost electricity and cabin pressure. Least I can figure this would have been an automatic ACARS message sent via the aircraft communication system to their operations center. Or would this have been a message that the flight crew sent letting their ops center know what was happening. Is this something unique to the A330 or does it apply to the newer Airbus aircraft (318,319,320,330...etc)

If it was an automatic message sent by the aircraft wouldn't that eliminate a need for a flight data recorder? It could in turn transmit real time what the aircraft is doing to a ground station.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

To 'lose' all electric sources you would have to 'lose' both engine generators (IDGs), not be able to use the APU, have the RAT fail AND 'loose' the battery also. Even then you have some pitch control through the trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS), rudder via cables (WHAT?) and roll with differential thrust via FADEC engines.

As for the ACARs reports, we are getting very sketchy information. Self-monitoring, self-diagnostics and self-reporting systems are not going to send a message of "There is an electrical problem." More likely is "#1 IDG failure, over-voltage...on and on" so there is no trouble shooting on the ground and mechanics scrambling for the manual and parts.

Agreed, the info is definitely sketchy. While many news reports state that ACARS transmitted a message related to the electrical system, it is not clear whether that message related to a "fault" versus a "failure" versus something else, or whether the event was routine or extraordinary. The message could be 100% unrelated to the loss for all we know.

Some speculation is centering on a fire ignited by a short circuit, as occurred aboard the Swissair (Swiss Int'l?) MD-11 in 1998. I was amazed to learn from the reporting that nearly all airliners are fitted with fire detectors or sensors only in the engines, cargo compartments, and the lavs. I would think it would be helpful to have additional detectors in the cabin/galleys and perhaps automatic ACARS reports of fire detections.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Its so weird to think that I just got up today like any other day and went out to breakfast and had a great time with my friends... when thousands of miles away, this horrible horrible event is taking place and we're all totally unaware, very weird feelings of guilt/sorrow/I wanna help but cant do ANYTHING :(

Best wishes to passengers and their families.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Terribly sad and chilling. :(
2009 has not been kind to the aviation industry after such a great run.

RIP to the victims and condolences to the families/friends/fellow crewmembers.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Its so weird to think that I just got up today like any other day and went out to breakfast and had a great time with my friends... when thousands of miles away, this horrible horrible event is taking place and we're all totally unaware, very weird feelings of guilt/sorrow/I wanna help but cant do ANYTHING :(

Best wishes to passengers and their families.

It's sad, but airplane crashes are the only reason I check CNN every morning, first thing when I wake up.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

What you think it should be solved by now? Perhaps the folks at AF and the French Pres should call you personally to explain what they know?

I suppose it's not surprising with today's 5 minute "sound bite" news cycle people have the attention span of a gnat.

Relax nobby!! You'll feel better if you do. All this stress is not good for you there buddy. ;)

A young plane with an experienced crew well into the flight goes down without a peep from the cockpit. I always find the "without a peep from the cockpit" circumstance very disquieting. To me that points to a rapid and catastrophic in-flight breakup or some funky pilot behavior ala Egypt Air. Not buying the lightning strike theory at all.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Relax nobby!! You'll feel better if you do. All this stress is not good for you there buddy. ;)

A young plane with an experienced crew well into the flight goes down without a peep from the cockpit. I always find the "without a peep from the cockpit" circumstance very disquieting. To me that points to a rapid and catastrophic in-flight breakup or some funky pilot behavior ala Egypt Air. Not buying the lightning strike theory at all.

Lightning strike could've very well happened, they're common. However it being the terminal event is very uncommon.
 
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