The proper way to "drop" a student?

c172captain

c172captain

Well-Known Member
So, I'm sure we've all had our fair share of students who drive us crazy, unless I'm simply a magnet for overbearing clients.

Anyways, I have a particular student who causes me to rip my hair out in frustration (not due to lack of flying ability, mind you) everytime we speak. I'm at the point where the positives of losing this person as a student would outweigh the positives of keeping her as one. I'm pretty single-minded and tend not to think of the right words to say and as a result end up as brash and rude. I was wondering how the more experienced folk out there would handle this kind of situation while at the sametime not having the student hate you at the end of the conversation. I see this person on a semi-regular basis (this is actually what led me to be her CFI in the first place) so saying that I've been recruited to a 3rd world country to help start a civil war isn't going to work this time ;)

Thanks in advance
Sean
 
  • I sense you're not happy with me as an instructor.
  • I think another instructor could better meet your needs.
  • I think you'd be happier with female instructor.
 
Tell her what a great site jetcareers.com is

Tell her your username

Make sure she finds this thread

Let things naturally work themselves out :D
 
tgrayson said:
  • I sense you're not happy with me as an instructor.
  • I think another instructor could better meet your needs.
  • I think you'd be happier with female instructor.
Click to expand...

That's actually really good

As for more details, I'll do my best.
  • Consistently at least 30 minutes late
  • Complains relentlessly about doing ground school
  • Never studies for lessons
  • After about 45 minutes of any flight, she always just starts zoning out (losing altitudes, missing radio calls, missing headings, etc.) and vehemently denies any lack of focus
  • Gives me attitude when I to give her constructive criticism on a maneuver, radio call, etc.
  • Shows no real initiative to progress
Umm, I think thats it.
 
c172captain said:
That's actually really good

As for more details, I'll do my best.
  • Consistently at least 30 minutes late
  • Complains relentlessly about doing ground school
  • Never studies for lessons
  • After about 45 minutes of any flight, she always just starts zoning out (losing altitudes, missing radio calls, missing headings, etc.) and vehemently denies any lack of focus
  • Gives me attitude when I to give her constructive criticism on a maneuver, radio call, etc.
  • Shows no real initiative to progress
Umm, I think thats it.
Click to expand...
is her motivation for a career in aviation or for fun? if it is for fun perhaps you need to make the lessons more fun and purposeful. if it is for a career she needs to look elsewhere
 
c172captain said:
She claims she's going to make a career out of it
Click to expand...

She does not need a new instructor, she needs an attitude change.

I would say you need to bo a more assertive instructor at this point, doing things like what Buick said "send her home," tgrays doesn't apply in my opinion because it isn't a new instructor problem, she just needs to understand whats up.

Before deciding where to go with your assertiveness though I think some questions need to be answers:

1) Has she not progressed for a long period of time?

2) Does she progress fairly?

or

3) Are you passing her when her ground knowledge may not be up to par?

Basically please describe the trend of the student/CFI relationship and maybe that "semi-regularly" part. Was she always like this or was she a good studying student at first? What changed? What didn't?

I think those answers would fill in the blanks. You may be able to just answer them yourself and realize something just following my crazy train of thought.

Either way good luck we understand if you can't post certain things. Law stuff I forget the code but ya
 
BuickCFI said:
if she doesn't come prepared, send her home that day! if that doesn't help with the motivation, one of tgray's.............
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

That's what I do. I am nice at first and make similar suggestions, try to find out why the student is not prepared, see if there is an underlying problem that is causing them to be distracted, etc... Even tell the student look you are wasting your time and money here and I don't want to see you do that. But when it continues sometimes you just have to be bold and tell them you are grounding them from flying until they can study and come more prepared. Wastes your time as well as hers.

I had one student that was similar when it came to ground school and being brushed up on what we were going to cover. So I simply told him each time you don't come prepared (which was fine for all I cared) that is less flying time and more money you are paying me to sit here and teach you. That didn't last too long when he was paying me extra $ to do ground instruction and he was not getting to fly much and the problem fixed itself. Hard part is every student is different so you have to find what tactic works best for that individual that will motivate them to change their behavior. Some are easier that others.

Good Luck!!!!
 
shdw said:
Before deciding where to go with your assertiveness though I think some questions need to be answers:

1) Yes
2) No
or

3) No
Click to expand...

To Jake: I have given her the speech of wasting both our times multiple times and have seen little results. Not only that but after I say that and require more ground training, I get my ass chewed out by her and her mom because "You said it was only going to be one more ground lesson! We need to go fly! How many more ground lessons are we going to have to put up with?!" To which I would reply "Until she starts coming prepared, as long as it takes."
 
Are you obligated to provide instruction to her? I used to tell students "I suggest you study, but if you don't I'll be happy to do your homework with you for $25/hr" but then I had a student change my mind. It sounds like the same kind of situation you have: my student's parents wanted him to get his ticket more than he did. Our syllabus has lesson 7 as a review prior to a presolo stage check. I think he flew that lesson 12-15 times and could never get past it. I finally told his parents they were wasting their money because he couldn't learn if he didn't study. Then I told the chief pilot I wouldn't fly with him anymore. I decided I loved flying too much to let some bum ruin it for me.
 
Do you work at a school with a Cheif Pilot?

I had a situation before, back last year with a student. I literally couldn't handle his attitude. It was just beyond me. One of those, real pretentious kinds.

Anyhow, I basically said hey, we are NOT getting along here(this was on the ground) and said this is it, I am getting you another instructor. One of my peeves is people who show up late... without a call, and then think they are entitled to everything. If someone shows up late, and I have 4 students scheduled with about 3 hours each, and someone makes it 45 minutes late to the first lesson, I am NOT pushing back the other 3. Not to mention, the airplanes were on a tight schedule.

At any rate, having a student that drives you nuts is not worth having. I don't care if it is income, I am willing to bet she is not your only student and there is most likely a greener instructor that will put up with her BS to get some time and money. On the other hand, find a seasoned older guy who doesn't have the "fuzzy mittens" approach to people.

There is always the option of just laying it out there. If she wants a career as a pilot, she is not going to get there with this attitude.
 
her mom? is she still in high school? if so talk 1 on 1 with her mom about it, tell her she is just wasting money by not coming prepared because learning to fly isnt like learning to drive, not every one can do it, or at least not w/o some study time
 
I see a few different parts to the whole scenario. Thanks for elaborating about the situation.

Ultimately, if you do not want to continue with the student, then I would suggest sitting the client and her mom down and explaining that you are frustrated and feel another instructor would be best suited to train her / her daughter.

But, if you do want to try to continue to work with them through this, here is my advice:

c172captain said:
Not only that but after I say that and require more ground training, I get my ass chewed out by her and her mom because "You said it was only going to be one more ground lesson! We need to go fly! How many more ground lessons are we going to have to put up with?!" To which I would reply "Until she starts coming prepared, as long as it takes."
Click to expand...

This is one of the problems, the parent is involved in the kid's training. It sounds funny to say, when I'm all for parents to be involved with their children's lives. But, the parent has no idea of what is transpiring. If the parent wants to be involved, they need to respect you as they would the kid's school teacher. You may need to talk to the parent to have them support you instead of work against you. You may need to contact the parent with a "homework" list to ensure the student comes prepared.

You can also set down the consequences of coming unprepared (although that should have been established early on in training)

The next suggestions come in red, because of the list of items:

c172captain said:
That's actually really good

As for more details, I'll do my best.
  • Consistently at least 30 minutes late Why aren't you charging for that time? I think you should make it clear that booked time is billed time due to the frequent tardiness.
  • Complains relentlessly about doing ground school Get the parent involved since they are paying. Kids whine about school too, but thats what taxes pay for. If it comes down to it, have the student demonstrate the knowledge through oral quizzing when the parent is there, it may shed light on things for the parent (or that the student has been holding out on you)
  • Never studies for lessons
  • After about 45 minutes of any flight, she always just starts zoning out (losing altitudes, missing radio calls, missing headings, etc.) and vehemently denies any lack of focus make your flights shorter. you can pair 2 hours up with a 1 hr gflight, 1/2 hr pre & post and a 1/2 hr ground lesson
  • Gives me attitude when I to give her constructive criticism on a maneuver, radio call, etc. a lot of teenagers are like that. their paradigm is completely different from reality. Ask them to tell you what they are doing wrong and what they are doing right. Then you preform the task. Ask them to tell you what was different between what you did and what they did. That should give you a springboard
  • Shows no real initiative to progress probably unable to see the objective of the goal. best to mix in what you think as a teenager, would be what flying is all about (freedom to go anywhere without parent) so incorporate going places into lessons. Another part comes down to you probably having to explain the reason to preform tasks in more detail because the teen doesn't see the overall objective
Umm, I think thats it.
Click to expand...
me too, hope it helps
 
c172captain said:
That's actually really good


As for more details, I'll do my best.
  • Consistently at least 30 minutes late
  • Complains relentlessly about doing ground school
  • Never studies for lessons
  • After about 45 minutes of any flight, she always just starts zoning out (losing altitudes, missing radio calls, missing headings, etc.) and vehemently denies any lack of focus
  • Gives me attitude when I to give her constructive criticism on a maneuver, radio call, etc.
  • Shows no real initiative to progress
Umm, I think thats it.
Click to expand...

I'd call it job security. Just accept it and take home the pay. Do your part and that's all you can do.
 
Well if she hasn't progressed in a long period of time maybe it is time to do a different task. As for the briefing, if she doesn't want to do her work then tell her you need her to schedule one 2 hour blocks, 1 hour to brief the other to fly so she can pay you to hold her hand and do her work for her. That attitude should go over great with mom ;)

But I am serious, without the attitude I would just do long briefs with her and prepare them as though they were like FAA lessons, heck you might learn something yourself in the process.

Was she always this kind of student, or did she used to come prepared and ready to brief/fly?
 
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