The proper way to "drop" a student?

Only student I dropped was a paralegal who was telling everyone he was a lawyer. He also already knew everything about flying when he came to get his private pilot lesson. One day I told him while he was teaching me:
"It's your money, it's about to be my money, and I fly just fine."

He bailed. Never saw him again. I don't suggest using the line often but it worked for me.
 
Are you obligated to provide instruction to her? I used to tell students "I suggest you study, but if you don't I'll be happy to do your homework with you for $25/hr" but then I had a student change my mind. It sounds like the same kind of situation you have: my student's parents wanted him to get his ticket more than he did. Our syllabus has lesson 7 as a review prior to a presolo stage check. I think he flew that lesson 12-15 times and could never get past it. I finally told his parents they were wasting their money because he couldn't learn if he didn't study. Then I told the chief pilot I wouldn't fly with him anymore. I decided I loved flying too much to let some bum ruin it for me.

I am not obligated so I really see no reason to continue since it is not at all enjoyable/worth the mental fatigue.

Do you work at a school with a Cheif Pilot?

I had a situation before, back last year with a student. I literally couldn't handle his attitude. It was just beyond me. One of those, real pretentious kinds.

Anyhow, I basically said hey, we are NOT getting along here(this was on the ground) and said this is it, I am getting you another instructor. One of my peeves is people who show up late... without a call, and then think they are entitled to everything. If someone shows up late, and I have 4 students scheduled with about 3 hours each, and someone makes it 45 minutes late to the first lesson, I am NOT pushing back the other 3. Not to mention, the airplanes were on a tight schedule.

At any rate, having a student that drives you nuts is not worth having. I don't care if it is income, I am willing to bet she is not your only student and there is most likely a greener instructor that will put up with her BS to get some time and money. On the other hand, find a seasoned older guy who doesn't have the "fuzzy mittens" approach to people.

There is always the option of just laying it out there. If she wants a career as a pilot, she is not going to get there with this attitude.

I do not have a chief pilot, unfortunately, and the older the, more experienced CFI doesn't want her back. Thats right, he's had her before and does NOT want her back lol Unfortunately I'm on the bottom of the totem pole at my flight school simply because no one new has come in for the past few months.

her mom? is she still in high school? if so talk 1 on 1 with her mom about it, tell her she is just wasting money by not coming prepared because learning to fly isnt like learning to drive, not every one can do it, or at least not w/o some study time

Unable, her mom is more thick-headed than she is. Talking to her mom will someone be turned around on me and I'll end up having to defend myself without even making my claim

I see a few different parts to the whole scenario. Thanks for elaborating about the situation.

Ultimately, if you do not want to continue with the student, then I would suggest sitting the client and her mom down and explaining that you are frustrated and feel another instructor would be best suited to train her / her daughter.

But, if you do want to try to continue to work with them through this, here is my advice:



This is one of the problems, the parent is involved in the kid's training. It sounds funny to say, when I'm all for parents to be involved with their children's lives. But, the parent has no idea of what is transpiring. If the parent wants to be involved, they need to respect you as they would the kid's school teacher. You may need to talk to the parent to have them support you instead of work against you. You may need to contact the parent with a "homework" list to ensure the student comes prepared.

You can also set down the consequences of coming unprepared (although that should have been established early on in training)

The next suggestions come in red, because of the list of items:


me too, hope it helps

That does help. I do charge her block rate time, so if we're booked for an hour and she shows up 45 minutes late, we do 15 minutes of whatever and I still charge her full price. I kind of like the idea of getting her mom to sit in on one of our lessons. An oral quiz would be an absolute joke, I doubt anything would be answered correctly. I understand that teenagers have attitude but I mean, come on. I'm only 18 and when I was her age (16) I was no where near as rude, pompous, or pugnacious. Not to say that I'm better than her in any way but dealing with her maturity on a regular basis is really wearing me thin.

I'd call it job security. Just accept it and take home the pay. Do your part and that's all you can do.

The pay isn't even worth it. I'd rather make $120/month less and be happy instead of the opposite.
 
Well if she hasn't progressed in a long period of time maybe it is time to do a different task. As for the briefing, if she doesn't want to do her work then tell her you need her to schedule one 2 hour blocks, 1 hour to brief the other to fly so she can pay you to hold her hand and do her work for her. That attitude should go over great with mom ;)

But I am serious, without the attitude I would just do long briefs with her and prepare them as though they were like FAA lessons, heck you might learn something yourself in the process.

Was she always this kind of student, or did she used to come prepared and ready to brief/fly?

On our last ground lesson we were supposed to spend 5 minutes reviewing the previously learned material (2 days prior) and then move on. Due to her lack of study and initiative to learn, we spent the entire hour going over the EXACT SAME MATERIAL and she reacted as if it was all new stuff. It was unbelievable. When I ask her why she doesn't study or why she's not paying attention during the lesson (she continuously zones out and/or gets distracted and starts playing with markers/model planes/etc. around the classroom) she tells me that she has other things on her mind and today just simply is not a good day for her. This is the excuse every time.
 
On our last ground lesson we were supposed to spend 5 minutes reviewing the previously learned material (2 days prior) and then move on. Due to her lack of study and initiative to learn, we spent the entire hour going over the EXACT SAME MATERIAL and she reacted as if it was all new stuff. It was unbelievable. When I ask her why she doesn't study or why she's not paying attention during the lesson (she continuously zones out and/or gets distracted and starts playing with markers/model planes/etc. around the classroom) she tells me that she has other things on her mind and today just simply is not a good day for her. This is the excuse every time.

Milk the ground money... or start charging 50% extra for material that has been re-covered....
 
Just do what I did today, No Show the student if he/she doesn't come prepared and make them pay for two hours of your time. After a few of these one of these things will happen:

1. The student will start coming prepared
2. The student will quit flying with you.

This student is making you a more patient person. Just keeping fighting through the bad things and hopefully one day you will look back and say, " I did a damn good job".

If you are Completely tired of the students BS, then just be honest with him/her. But the No Show method works pretty good.

Good luck.
 
Is she ADD?

Even though mom is hard headed too, the next time mom said anything about the situation, I think I'd lay on the "I'm doing everything I can to make sure she doesn't go up there alone and get herself killed, but if she won't do her part by studying and coming prepared, then she's just going to have to settle for flying with me for the rest of her life."

Good luck. Someday, this will be one of those "I had this one student..." stories.
 
Tough spot.
It sounds like you have gotten good advice.

I once tried to get rid of a student that frustrated me and I frustrated him, he ended up refusing to fly with anybody else....I moved to Nebraska ;) (move was unrelated)
 
What I'm tired of is the students that think because mom and dad pay for everything, they KNOW EVERYTHING!!!!

To those "entitled students" , First off, let me just say...thank you. Thank you for the last couple of months I have been adrift in a sea of euphoric laughter, lollipops, and, let's face it, mediocre metaphors. Luckily, you were kind enough to piss all over learning techniques you've been taught that could determine whether you and some poor unlucky passenger lives or dies. And that reminded me of something that I wanted to remind you of. You see, I am accountable. I am accountable for the continuous, undeniable amateurism that you drag into this airport day in and day out.
And believe you me when I tell you that the next time one of you perpetual disappointments doesn't even have the common decency to try and do better at something you supposedly “DO”? I will go ahead and toss your sorry ass outta here in about ten seconds and then I will forget you forever in the next five! You ever think that maybe I don’t want to spend my life sittin’ around and explaining to people like you, who don't even care?..... You know how f'n’ easy this is to me? This is a joke! And I’m sorry you can’t do this. I really am. ‘Cause if you could I wouldn’t be forced to watch you fumble around and F it up!

RANT DONE!!! GAWD.. I need to get recalled... or something... These "SJS" kids, are just all forgone conclusions. Its easy to tell.. People the best advice I can give, is to BE HUMBLE in this INDUSTRY.. it is too small to go around acting like you are Gods gift to pilots, and you deserve everything!
WRONG... A FLYING JOB IS A PRIVILEGE, NO MATTER IF ITS A 172 OR ITS A 777, ITS A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE A FLYING JOB RIGHT NOW, SO DON'T YOU DARE COME INTO MY OFFICE AND BARK AT ME THAT I'M WRONG AND YOU'RE RIGHT BECAUSE YOU HAVE 12HRS OF TT AND YOU ARE A MEMBER OF JC! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AND I HOPE YOU READ THIS!


RANT OFF! - I would have told someone else this, but in a public place at the moment, this is the best I can do.. probably edit it later... for now.. im out.
 
Does she REALLY want to fly or what? Sounds like there is very little motivation. Have you guys gone out and done a GOOD cross country? Some place interesting with something to do? Maybe she can bring a friend along to bring the "fun" back into it. Not everyone really enjoys all the steep turns and stalls and lacks the motivation.

It does seem like that there are underlying issues here.

Sure I am not a CFI, but I get to deal with a mess load of FE students.
 
Does she REALLY want to fly or what? Sounds like there is very little motivation. Have you guys gone out and done a GOOD cross country? Some place interesting with something to do? Maybe she can bring a friend along to bring the "fun" back into it. Not everyone really enjoys all the steep turns and stalls and lacks the motivation.

It does seem like that there are underlying issues here.

Sure I am not a CFI, but I get to deal with a mess load of FE students.


Do a good cc to a beach. You may be able to get to the underlying issues there! ...sorry couldn't resist
 
To Jake: I have given her the speech of wasting both our times multiple times and have seen little results. Not only that but after I say that and require more ground training, I get my ass chewed out by her and her mom because "You said it was only going to be one more ground lesson! We need to go fly! How many more ground lessons are we going to have to put up with?!" To which I would reply "Until she starts coming prepared, as long as it takes."

It's hard when parents or other family members get involved. I had a student with an uncle who was like that and he would call and get all over me because this kid hadn't passed his instrument yet and was mad because I was charging for ground time. What I was doing was alotting 1.5-2 times extra so there would be flight and ground time (that way they cannot say why are you not flying). In reality all the parent sees is money they are wasting (they are paying the bill). They are probably getting another story at home altogether.

There are a couple solutions to this problem:

1. Document everytime you spend with this student. Why you did ground and what you had to cover. Weak areas, etc... This way when mom comes back you can talk to her privately and say look here is where we need to be and here is what is happening. She is just not coming prepared. You can also suggest to mom that maybe she would be better with a different instructor or say do you have any ideas. Let mom think she has some control over this again.

2. If this is just part 61 just go out and fly. Skip the ground leaving it all on the student and spend more time going over things in the air. I hardly cover any ground under 61 and only do it when needed (explain turns around a point, cross country planning, etc...). Just don't sign her off for the written till she can prove to you she is ready. I make my students take 2-3 practice writtens to get an average score of where they are at. They have no one to blame but themselves when they bring me 3 tests with 60s-70s on them and wonder why they are not getting it and I won't sign them off.

3. Drop her. No one likes to do this but sometimes you just have to tell a student you are wasting my time. Or you can do it nicer and say I am obviously not the right instructor for you and back out. Sometimes you just get students that won't cut it at this no matter what.
 
I want to keep this short, so I'll just say this. I think an instructor should never 'dump' a student. I think it's completely unprofessional. That goes for any kind of leadership position, not just flight instructing. You, as the leader of this student/instructor relationship have the responsibility to make it work. If there is exists a conflict that is blocking the student from receiving quality instruction from you, it's your responsibility to figure out what is causing that conflict and do what it takes to solve it. A lot of instructors like to take the easy way out by placing the blame solely on the student, but it hardly ever is. For example the OP of this thread hasn't once admitted doing any wrong so far, which to me says it right there.

When I was doing my training, I did the "zoning out" thing during ground school as well. Sometimes it was because I already knew (or thought I already knew) the stuff my instructor was going over. Other times it was because the instructor giving me ground school was someone who I thought was a total buffoon. Other times it's something else. The thing you have to remember is that it's your responsibility as instructor to figure out whats going on. Sadly it turns out that most CFI training programs focus primarily on airplane specific stuff like how to teach lazy-8's and explain fuel systems instead of focusing on the human interaction factors that I feel are more important. In my tenure of instructing I learned how to be a better leader way more than I learned to be a better pilot.

Anyways, if you really feel the student will be better suited with another instructor, then explain to the student why you feel this way, and maybe even suggest another instructor the student may try to contact. Tell the student that if she shows up late then you can't fly because then you'd have to cancel other students after her. Don't make her think you're making this policy because you have it in for her. I know when I was a student I had instructors who had these hard ass rules which made me think the instructor was being a dick to me simply for the sake of it. That may not have been the case, but thats certainly how I felt. And it made the problem worse.

Ask her whats bothering her. Ask her what you need to do to make thing better between you and her. If she gives you a bs answer, then take that to mean she doesn't trust you. From then on work on building her trust.

Anyways, so much for keeping this short. Just remember, just saying to them " you, find someone else" is completely unprofessional.
 
I think an instructor should never 'dump' a student. I think it's completely unprofessional. That goes for any kind of leadership position, not just flight instructing. You, as the leader of this student/instructor relationship have the responsibility to make it work.

I think broad strokes and generalizations aren't all encompassing. :p

I'd really like to know where you came up with the above quoted wisdom. Albeit, opinions are just that, and mine differs from yours; and, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I just don't agree with you. Or at least, I recognize standards of perfection and utopia don't exist in my paradigm.
 
I think broad strokes and generalizations aren't all encompassing. :p

I'd really like to know where you came up with the above quoted wisdom. Albeit, opinions are just that, and mine differs from yours; and, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I just don't agree with you. Or at least, I recognize standards of perfection and utopia don't exist in my paradigm.
What exactly do you not agree with?

You ever watch the TV show The Wire? Theres this scene in season one where a detective who is always drunk on the job has a talk with the lieutenant after trying to get out of doing a mission because he was hung-over. The lieutenant says (paraphrased) "You were dumped onto me but thats where it ends. I don't dump people. Either you check yourself into rehab and get yourself dry, or you go on this surveillance mission wet." The lieutenant could have very easily just transfered the drunk bastard to another unit and been done with it. But instead he took some leadership initiative and dealt with the problem instead of sweeping him under the rug.

I believe to call yourself a professional flight instructor, you must be willing to do what it takes to create a situation where the student can learn to fly. I don't really think an instructor should have the 'luxury' to only have to deal with people that is easiest to him. Just like the police lieutenant shouldn't necessarily take it upon himself (even though he can) to pick and choose who he leads. If you're only willing to put the effort into a subset of the public that you are accustomed to dealing with, then you aren't taking responsibility.

I'm not saying that every instructor must sit there and take all kinds of beatings and be in situations they don't want to be in. I'm just saying you must take responsibility for things you are responsible for.
 
I have had a similar experience with a hard-headed parent of a knucklehead student. This student was a private student and was planning to get all the ratings and go to the regionals blah blah you get the idea. He never studied and complained about ground lessons. He thought that he would show up, fly, complete the lesson, and move on. I found out real quick that you have to stand your ground. The parents may be paying for the training but they definately aren't running the training you are. In my case, the father came up to the school to complain on me for refusing to fly with his son. I sat him down and explained to him that I had been warning his son that if he does not study that our flight lessons could not progress any further. We were getting close to solo and he couldn't pass a presolo written exam. We use the Cessna CBT curriculum for ground and he was way behind on the lessons. That is why I was scheduling ground lessons instead of flight lessons to get his knowledge up to par. The talk did nothing and after he paid me a number of 2hr blocks for no showing me he eventually stopped scheduling altogether. Although I was disappointed that I couldn't turn the situation around and keep him from quitting or going somewhere else, I refuse to make concessions and work with someone who puts absolutely no effort in their pilot training. I chalked it up as just another learning experience for me and moved on. :)

Good Luck!!!
 
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