caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot lounge?

CAP_Flyer · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that because there's a few snobby line guys out there that we're all a bunch of uneducated wanna-be a-holes.

Remember that it DOES go both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of • pilots who most certainly have that holier-than-thou attitudes. Line service does their fair share of things to piss off pilots, and pilots do their fair share of things to piss off line service. It's especially that way when we remind you to keep the parking brake off if we need to tow you, find it on (which ticks US off), and we need to drag you out to the ramp from the hotel to release the brake (which ticks YOU off).

As for the 'ask if you don't know' and the 'know it all' type of line guys...Well, I really have no argument there seeing as I work with one or two that LOVE to talk about how they can do no wrong with an aircraft and can't stand being told how to do their job even when they're doing it wrong.

Come into DPA, snooze away. Too noisy in the pilot lounge? Let me know, I'll put you in the VIP lounge so you can catch some Zs. But don't expect me to go out of my way for you if you're acting and treating me like I'm somthing that you need to scrape off the bottom of your shoe.

n57flyguy · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Bandit_Driver said:
I am highly skeptical of line personnel until they prove themselves.

What do you consider "proving ourselves?"

N519AT · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

CAP_Flyer said:
Just don't make the mistake of thinking that because there's a few snobby line guys out there that we're all a bunch of uneducated wanna-be a-holes.

Remember that it DOES go both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of • pilots who most certainly have that holier-than-thou attitudes. Line service does their fair share of things to piss off pilots, and pilots do their fair share of things to piss off line service. It's especially that way when we remind you to keep the parking brake off if we need to tow you, find it on (which ticks US off), and we need to drag you out to the ramp from the hotel to release the brake (which ticks YOU off).

As for the 'ask if you don't know' and the 'know it all' type of line guys...Well, I really have no argument there seeing as I work with one or two that LOVE to talk about how they can do no wrong with an aircraft and can't stand being told how to do their job even when they're doing it wrong.

Come into DPA, snooze away. Too noisy in the pilot lounge? Let me know, I'll put you in the VIP lounge so you can catch some Zs. But don't expect me to go out of my way for you if you're acting and treating me like I'm somthing that you need to scrape off the bottom of your shoe.

:yeahthat:

jrh · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

n57flyguy said:
What do you consider "proving ourselves?"

For me that means using the same FBO on multiple occasions and consistently getting good service.

Bandit_Driver · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

I avoid Signature like the plague. If you are cargo you get absolutely no service, attitude, and a big bill.

Like others said earlier. A well trained line employee is a rare find these days. I have had pretty good Luck with Duncan Aviation people in KBTL and Lincoln, NE

ntbjounin · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

yea snooze room is just that! room for snoozing! i sleep in fbos all the time. I find the hard part is picking airports with open 24/7 fbos. the best are the ones that have a pilot door open 24 hrs. with a keypad.

BrewMaster · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

I work the line and try to give everyone outstanding service. Our airport isn't very big, and loosing just 1 customer to poor service can multiply into hundreds if not thousands of dollars lost over time. Even more if they know a lot of people. As a pilot I wait to see what kind of service I'm getting before I just do everything myself. If the line guy/gal seems competent and puts in the effort I will trust them. If they don't park me and come out with chocks after I shut down, I know where I stand. I think it is only fair to go on a case by case basis when I fly into airports because not all linepersons are bad a.k.a. LAZY.

n57flyguy · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

jrh said:
For me that means using the same FBO on multiple occasions and consistently getting good service.

Good deal, I wasn't trying to be a smartass, but if I can improve in anyway to help customers, I'll be glad to hear.

However, like said before it really does go both ways. When I'm getting heat from a guy becaussse his credit card doesn't work, he gets pissed at me. I don't know why, or care why really.

jrh · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Bandit_Driver said:
Like others said earlier. A well trained line employee is a rare find these days. I have had pretty good Luck with Duncan Aviation people in KBTL and Lincoln, NE

Duncan is a really top notch organization.

Their head line service manager has a six figure salary. It's not unheard of for their regular line guys to make a career out of working the line simply because the pay and benefits are so good. You don't find that at many FBOs nowadays.

Sprint100 · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Damn, I thought it would have gotten better. When I worked the line at Supermarine at KSMO the pilots were great, though you'd have thought they would have been total snobs. I noticed the line guys I worked were waaaaaaayyyyyyy less than respecting of others or professional. Needless to say I only stuck around that joint for a year, because I hate working with incompetent co-workers. There was only one good guy who was courteous and professional, I guess the common denominator is that we both knew of and respected the piloting profession.

jrh · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

n57flyguy said:
Good deal, I wasn't trying to be a smartass, but if I can improve in anyway to help customers, I'll be glad to hear.

See, that's the thing, I'm sure their are plenty of line guys like yourself that work hard and do the best they can.

But the problem comes from the system, not the individuals. At most FBOs there is a revolving door of line service staff, the pay is barely a step above factory labor, and training is minimal. A lot of screw ups happen because people either aren't trained over something, or else they haven't been around long enough to learn the nuances of what goes on at airports.

All of the things that piss me off about line workers stem from those two reasons. They don't understand the significance of giving proper fuel loads because they've never been trained over weight and balance or density altitude. To them it's just, "Oh, my bad, I put in an extra 15 gallons. What's an extra 15 gallons anyway?" when obviously the pilot understands 15 gallons can mean the difference between carrying a passenger or not. A lot of line workers don't understand the significance of tying a plane down on a windy day because they haven't been around long enough to see a plane flying in its tiedown ropes.

And this is what ultimately makes me distrusting. I don't have anything against the individual. It's just that I know if I grab an average worker at random, I'm going to know a lot more than them because I've been doing it longer and have a deeper understanding of the operation. Until I've dealt with them several times and have seen them consistently do a good job, it's a lot easier to handle things myself.

The best way to be an awesome line worker is to keep learning new things every day and get a bunch of experience. Hmmm...almost sounds like flying.

Jimmy_Norton · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

I was a line guy for 10 years, and I was amazed at how stupid some pilots are.

Examples:

1. Totally ignoring my marshaling instructions and running your King Air's wingtip into a fence, then trying to blame me
2. Not paying attention to my marshaling instructions and ending up in a position blocking the whole ramp then yelling at me for being an idiot.
3. Acting like you are the most important person on the ramp when there are about 15 other airplanes, and expecting instant service. It won't hurt you to get your own ice, especially when you are standing right next to the ice machine.
4. Not calling ahead of time with a pull up time, then bitching when it takes longer than 5 min to have your airplane up front.
5. Throwing a temper tantrum when we won't fuel your airplane in the middle of a level 5 thunderstorm.
6. Not opening the scissor valve on the pull out lav in your brand new Citation Encore, then not even saying thank you, let alone tip me, after I clean the mess up and give you Lav 101.

Now that I am a line pilot, I try to treat the line guys with respect, cause I was in their shoes for a long time. I fly with people like JRH that treat the line guys like scum, then bitch about the service. Well maybe if you treated them with respect, and gave them the benefit of the doubt, you might get better service.

I kept a list in my head of the a-holes, and lets just say I didn't go the extra mile for them. I DID go the extra mile for the guys that treated me well, and even tipped now and then.

jrh · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Jimmy_Norton said:
Now that I am a line pilot, I try to treat the line guys with respect, cause I was in their shoes for a long time. I fly with people like JRH that treat the line guys like scum, then bitch about the service. Well maybe if you treated them with respect, and gave them the benefit of the doubt, you might get better service.

Whoa, whoa there, pal. What do you think I do to treat anyone like scum?

I'm very respectful to line workers. I simply don't ask them to do anything for me unless I absolutely have to. In that sense, I probably make their life easier. I don't have them pull my plane from the hangar, I never ask them to tie it down on the ramp, I never give them a complicated fuel order, I politely decline if they ask to clean my windshield, etc. Why am I this way? Because I've seen simple requests like those get messed up so many times before.

There's a BIG difference between not asking for anything and actively treating somebody like scum.

kiloalpha · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

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I worked line as a CFI (who doesn't for a little extra cash.) Had 2 calls for fuel (one Jet, one LL) at 7:55. We closed at 8:00. Fine. So I get the Jet truck over to the helicopter and ask them how much. "2 gallons please." What!?!? :banghead: Fine, whatever. Back to the LL truck to gas up the Piper in the hanger (that I needed to find the keys to) that also need 2 quarts of oil. I didn't get out of there until 9, it was a long day.

And I use the snooze room all the time on the those 10-hour wait days. Numerous time have I been woken up but some FLAP pilot barging in turning on the lights, talking on their cell phone, turning on the TV, propping the door open and then leaving 2 minutes later. I was sooo angry. The door was closed and lights off, what other indication did you need to know that 'hey, someone is sleeping in there', perhaps a sign on the door? Nah, I'm sure that wouldn't have worked.

I'm sure I've done something to piss off line guys or other pilots, but I always apologize if I'm in error and I try really hard not to piss anyone off.

Back to line guys...

LEARN HOW TO TOP OFF A COMMANDER! We have "single-point" 100LL that fuels 5 tanks. Sure you have to stand on the ladder a bit longer to get the fuel to transfer but I'm buying all the fuel I can get, especially if your FBO is cheaper than our base FBO.

Also, learn what airplane is what fuel. NTSB report. I'm sure they knew, but wasn't smart enough to figure it out. Our lives depend on your common sense. One of our Commanders was fueled with Jet-A once. Engines quit at 600 agl, luckily our pilot made the impossible turn and landed safely. But unfortunately, some pilots/passengers aren't that lucky.

Boy, did that feel good!

Jimmy_Norton · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

jrh said:
Generally speaking, I have a low opinion of line service workers.

jrh said:
Whoa, whoa there, pal. What do you think I do to treat anyone like scum?

Coulda fooled me.

jrh · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

Jimmy_Norton said:
Coulda fooled me.

Are you saying it's impossible to have a low opinion of a group of people yet still treat them with respect?

I have a low opinion of former president G. W. Bush, but if I ever met the guy, I'd still be nice to him.

That's how it is with line workers. As a whole, I never expect much of them, but I'm still a nice guy to them.

n57flyguy · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

jrh said:
See, that's the thing, I'm sure their are plenty of line guys like yourself that work hard and do the best they can.

But the problem comes from the system, not the individuals. At most FBOs there is a revolving door of line service staff, the pay is barely a step above factory labor, and training is minimal. A lot of screw ups happen because people either aren't trained over something, or else they haven't been around long enough to learn the nuances of what goes on at airports.

All of the things that piss me off about line workers stem from those two reasons. They don't understand the significance of giving proper fuel loads because they've never been trained over weight and balance or density altitude. To them it's just, "Oh, my bad, I put in an extra 15 gallons. What's an extra 15 gallons anyway?" when obviously the pilot understands 15 gallons can mean the difference between carrying a passenger or not. A lot of line workers don't understand the significance of tying a plane down on a windy day because they haven't been around long enough to see a plane flying in its tiedown ropes.

And this is what ultimately makes me distrusting. I don't have anything against the individual. It's just that I know if I grab an average worker at random, I'm going to know a lot more than them because I've been doing it longer and have a deeper understanding of the operation. Until I've dealt with them several times and have seen them consistently do a good job, it's a lot easier to handle things myself.

The best way to be an awesome line worker is to keep learning new things every day and get a bunch of experience. Hmmm...almost sounds like flying.

I can agree with that. Not to say I have had to deal with some rather stupid complaints about things beyond my control. Training is a huge factor in my opinion as well. I've had to teach myself alot of stuff along the way, things I was never trained for. Some of those things that come up I really couldn't be trained for anyway and I had to act on my own to figure it out.

I treat my customers as I would like to be treated if I flew in and needed fuel. I get satisfaction out of knowing I have taken care of them and have a small part in getting them where they want to go. That is the reason I like being on line service so much.

A main reason for poor line service to me comes from pure laziness. If they put 15 extra gallons in, thats just simply not following directions given to them. I hardly think that comes from training, thats just poor work ethic. Would training help? Sure they would understand why you shouldn't put more fuel in. But, if someone just doesn't give a crap anyway, well they are not going to give a crap. Line service training is great and gets the job done safely, but what it can come down to is what the individual does with the training. Theres no training for laziness, which is why I believe line people get a bad reputation for a few bad ones. I try and change that reputation every day I work.

texas_pilot · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

I definately appreciate superior service from skilled, conscientous linemen/ladies.
Just as past instances of one of our company pilot's being a butt doesn't make me one too, I don't automatically put all the guys from an FBO in the same bag, either. Communication and mutual respect go a long way.

trafficinsight · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

A little late but.... both pilots and line guys are idiots.

haha, I was getting to that....

"As a mechanic it is my considered opinion that you're all a bunch of knuckle draggers."

Bandit_Driver · May 24, 2009

Re: caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot loung

jrh said:
Duncan is a really top notch organization.

Their head line service manager has a six figure salary. It's not unheard of for their regular line guys to make a career out of working the line simply because the pay and benefits are so good. You don't find that at many FBOs nowadays.

I knew they paid well but didn't know it was that well...

caught flak for sleeping in a.... snoozeroom/pilot lounge?

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