Are the airlines to blame for our low wages? Not really.

[ThatOtherDude]

I think that if you read the mission statement of this website you'd recondsider that. I'm not the founder, but I don't think I'd be going to far out on a limb to say that the reason this website was founded was to educate, answer questions and help the next guy coming up-not to belly ache and complain.

The purpose of my post was to urge others to write their congressman as I did. I think that's a little more then just complaining and better than a personal attack on pilots for poor career choices. This a sad time but also an important time where everyone should be doing their part to improve the industry. The reason being, it's receiving the very much deserved attention it needs to and we shouldn't let it go in vain.

Just look at the front page of the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/

 

[jynxyjoe]

Like who? We're all (regionals at least) underpaid. Some just more than others. And when you take domicile and hiring status in consideration...well, it's a no win situations for us. Also, the demand is less then the supply so that doesn't help.

BTW if you don't wanna read Bitching & Moaning it might not be a good idea to be on a pilot forum. Although, any of your constructive and helpful critisism is very much apprecciated

We are all underpaid so there is no winning? yet some regionals pay more than others...

I see no sense in your reply so let me just add one more suggestion. Find a flying job that pays more. Don't know what else to tell you. Seems like your just trying to get people to agree that it is hopeless and I think you are wrong.

Meanwhile. The rest of us are going to work on improving work conditions and pay.

 

[Copperhed51]

I wrote my congressmen a couple of days ago. As has been mentioned here, I didn't write just to complain about my wages and quality of life...I wrote to explain how the RLA is tying our hands and keeping us from negotiating fair wages and work rules. The government isn't going to step in and force the companies to pay us more, but they do have the ability to reexamine the RLA and possibly free us from it's restrictive language. I would imagine most in congress don't have any idea how the RLA works and that it even applies to the airlines. Some enlightenment is crucial here in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no faith in this government to do anything right anymore, but that's not going to stop me from trying to persuade them. Just be sure when you write these people that you write to them in a way that helps educate them on how things work and what you suggest could be done to help fix it. Let's make the legacy of Colgan 3407 one of major change and improvement for the entire industry.

And to quote a very wise man, "[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Let it not be said that we did nothing. Let not those who love the power of the welfare/warfare state label the dissenters of authoritarianism as unpatriotic or uncaring. Patriotism is more closely linked to dissent than it is to conformity and a blind desire for safety and security. Understanding the magnificent rewards of a free society makes us unbashful in its promotion, fully realizing that maximum wealth is created and the greatest chance for peace comes from a society respectful of individual liberty."[/FONT]

 

[ThatOtherDude]

We are all underpaid so there is no winning? yet some regionals pay more than others...

I see no sense in your reply so let me just add one more suggestion. Find a flying job that pays more. Don't know what else to tell you. Seems like your just trying to get people to agree that it is hopeless and I think you are wrong.

Meanwhile. The rest of us are going to work on improving work conditions and pay.

Please tell us what you're doing to "improve work conditions and pay". I'd love to join you in doing such.

 

[BajtheJino]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?
I can't for the life of me understand why people (a segment of the pilot population) expect others to make their lives better.
It's called life. Deal with it.

 

[WacoFan]

Chicken or the egg question here.

I think that the blame pretty clearly falls on some combination of Frank Lorenzo and the pilots that scabbed in the Continental strike. This taught airline executives that pilots would in fact work for not much, or at least would work for wages far below the standard at that time. My Grandpa retired in December 1984 at age 60. He was flying the 727 domestic then and home everynight. His W2 that year, flying domestic narrowbody after 31 years was greater than Sully's current W2 flying domestic narrowbody after 28 years or so of service...and that is 25 years later, and based on dollar amounts that are not inflation adjusted.

Baj is correct in one respect though - nobody forced you to accept employment at a regional, or within the field of aviation for that matter. I would support your fight to improve the position, but not the intrusion of government wage controls.

 

[ThatOtherDude]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?
I can't for the life of me understand why people (a segment of the pilot population) expect others to make their lives better.
It's called life. Deal with it.

They don't set wages but they do have control over laws that are impeding us from negotiating fair contracts in a timely matter. Why did I have to waste a reply just to say this?

 

[gcc005]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?
I can't for the life of me understand why people (a segment of the pilot population) expect others to make their lives better.
It's called life. Deal with it.

They do it quite often. Minimum Wage. (Which is creeping closer and closer to regional wages.)

The court system as well has been hearing cases on equal pay for equal work under the Equal Pay Act of 1963. However, the EPA is only for protected classes, and is specifically intended for pay discrimination against women.

 

[Copperhed51]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?
I can't for the life of me understand why people (a segment of the pilot population) expect others to make their lives better.
It's called life. Deal with it.

As much as I'd enjoy launching into some personal attacks right now, I'll just tell you to go back and read the entire thread up until your post. Maybe you'll understand some of this better then.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?
I can't for the life of me understand why people (a segment of the pilot population) expect others to make their lives better.
It's called life. Deal with it.

For the life of me, I don't understand why facts don't enter into your posts.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Since when has Congress set wages? How is that even remotely constitutional?

You should look into a little thing called Decision 83 from way back in the early days of commercial aviation. It was one of ALPA's greatest victories, and it did indeed legislate minimum pilot wages and maximum hours.

So what's the solution then? If it's so perfect the way it is, why am I making $20k a year and can't strike about it?

The current law allows you to strike, but the problem is that you've had an anti-labor President and administration for eight years. The President appoints 2 of the 3 members of the National Mediation Board (NMB), which gets to decide when you can strike. President Bush once said shortly after the Comair strike that crippled Delta: "no more airline strikes on my watch." Things are about to be very different when President Obama's appointees take office.

ALPA's been doing this for almost 80 years and what do they have to show for it?

Are you kidding? I think you should read Flying the Line, Vol I & II to see just how much ALPA has to show for their 78 years of pilot representation. I don't think you'd like a piloting career similar to those that were available prior to ALPA coming along.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

My only problem with the RLA is that it is designed to lock both parties (Labor and Management) into the RLA... but Management always has an out, bankruptcy.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

My only problem with the RLA is that it is designed to lock both parties (Labor and Management) into the RLA... but Management always has an out, bankruptcy.

ALPA is working on that loophole.

 

[ThatOtherDude]

Are you kidding? I think you should read Flying the Line, Vol I & II to see just how much ALPA has to show for their 78 years of pilot representation. I don't think you'd like a piloting career similar to those that were available prior to ALPA coming along.

Ok, they've done stuff for the industry but if they didn't it would of gotten done anyway. It's not 1935 anymore, women have rights and minorities can vote but ALPA didn't fight the civil war for us. I mean it's not fair to say because we can't compare these last 78 years of ALPA to the same years without it but I can look at other countries and we're not up to par.

FO & CA pay still sucks at almost all regionals and some Majors, still working 16 hour days, minimum rest still sucks and I can't call out sick once without a doctor's note but at least... I don't know. You tell me. I haven't read Flying the Line. Highlights?

BTW I'm not anti ALPA. I voted for them and am glad we have them. I just feel they have the ability to step up a little more for us. Maybe it's just the NyQuil talking. I apologize.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I almost fell into this trap. I've only been flying professionally for a few years, a real short time. It seems like as long as I could remember the profession has slid a little more towards the crapper. Bankruptcy, concessions, carriers paying someone what rightly should be a RJ salary to fly a MD80, psuedo-cabotage with Virgin, Mesa's new subpar contract (Sorry guys)

If you just look at all the crap you might groan and ask 'What is my union doing?!' -- well, they were doing both all they could and not very much. The reign of GW Bush has set us back far more than just his 8 years, I think.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ok, they've done stuff for the industry but if they didn't it would of gotten done anyway.

That's awfully presumptuous. Decision 83, which raised pilot pay and reduced pilot work hours by astronomical proportions would not have even been considered without ALPA's hard work. Many of the safety improvements would probably have happened anyway, but much later without ALPA doing the pushing. Other safety improvements wouldn't have happened at all without ALPA's lobbying efforts. The work rules and retirement that we have today are all thanks to ALPA. Without a union, the government and the companies themselves certainly wouldn't be making sure you have 15 days off and a retirement plan that you don't have to contribute a dime to (I realize that you're at a regional, but you'll be at a major with a retirement plan someday). Things may not be all rosy, but things would be a hell of a lot worse without ALPA efforts.

but I can look at other countries and we're not up to par.

Those other countries haven't had 30+ years of anti-labor, pro-big-business government. And sadly, many pilots have contributed votes to that anti-labor government. It's all about Capital Hill, my friend. Back the PAC!

FO & CA pay still sucks at almost all regionals and some Majors, still working 16 hour days, minimum rest still sucks and I can't call out sick once without a doctor's note but at least... I don't know.

Yes, pay has fallen considerably, but that's on the upswing again with the improved industry economics (despite the recession) and the more labor-friendly government. Alaska's pay rates in their new TA are almost back to pre-9/11 wages; same with Delta by the end of their new contract. SWA is about there, too. AirTran and Hawaiian will be soon. Things are looking better on that front.

As far as the work rules you refer to, things aren't that bad at most ALPA carriers. You're working at a small regional carrier that never had a union until a few months ago. Things won't change overnight. It takes years of hard work to improve the situation. At most other regionals, it's not as bad as you're dealing with.

You tell me. I haven't read Flying the Line. Highlights?

Sorry, but you'll have to read it. You need to read it. ALPA provides free copies, so just call your reps and ask for them.

 

[MikeD]

The current law allows you to strike, but the problem is that you've had an anti-labor President and administration for eight years. The President appoints 2 of the 3 members of the National Mediation Board (NMB), which gets to decide when you can strike. President Bush once said shortly after the Comair strike that crippled Delta: "no more airline strikes on my watch." Things are about to be very different when President Obama's appointees take office.

Don't forget Clinton not allowing American to strike in 1997 during his presidential term..ordering them back to work 4 minutes after the strike began.. He had them ordered back to work again in 1999 following a mass "sick-out", due to RLA restrictions. And Clinton was supposed to be a pro-union President. At least a strike was allowed to occur under Bush's term. Not a backing or slam of either President, just a factual observation that IMO, it doesn't really matter who is in office......if a strike is determined to adversly affect the country's best interest, no President is going to allow it, pro or anti union.

 

[Socal321]

Which came first the chicken or the egg? The high wages or the pilot willing to fly for food? This industry is doomed. You can't have it both ways at the very best things will just stagnate to the point where the pay rates will still be the same in 2020. They've only gone down the last decade.

 

[derg]

The industry isn't doomed as long as the US is as big as it is. It's only "doomed" as far as people willing to accept less for an a honest days work.

 

[BajtheJino]

As much as I'd enjoy launching into some personal attacks right now

What would that solve?

For the life of me, I don't understand why facts don't enter into your posts.

What facts?

Theres a weekly thread of guys complaining about their low pay and everyone wondering who is going to fix it for them. It seems since Obama has come into office and started bailing everyone out guys think (akin to buying a lottery ticket and having candy cane dreams and sugar plum visions of hitting it big) that the government is going to step in and re-regulate wages to PanAm/TWA days. Guess what, its not going to happen. Even with the results of 3407 no one is going to step in a just give everyone a pay raise.
Afterall, your union is the one responsible for negotiating your pay. Why do they keep giving it away? Why don't you guys demand they negotiate the way you want? Oh, thats right. The pilot group is ok with giving it away because they're told if they don't they'll lose their jobs. CRJ900 on the lot!?! I'll do it for $20/hour! Hells yes! Then you get what we have here (failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach) a lot of typing and no action.
Writing your congressman/senator will never change pay.