Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearance?

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Lots of banter going on here I'm having a hard time following (I've had a few). But as far as I can read from the OP, operating in IMC in uncontroled airspace means you would be in violation of 1sm and COC. 91.155 gives you an out, kinda. Seems when the violate someone, they always throw 91.13 at you for good measure. But do you realy want to loose the runway when turning base to final, or downwind to base? I have had it happen to me once, and the pucker factor went through the roof. I almost had to pull the seat out of my but after we landed. I knew where I was, and where to go, but only haveing 1/2 mile of vis, was to say the least, a stupid thing to do.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace with any clearance?

minitour said:
True. I guess "technically" he's correct, reading the text as written in the post. You could take off in uncontrolled airspace, track the airways, land in uncontrolled airspace without talking to someone or having so much as a transponder or radio....provided you were VFR under 10,000', bla bla bla. I read it to mean you'd be IFR er...in IMC the whole time.

-mini
Click to expand...

No worries mini. I was just jumping on the hyper-analyze bandwagon. Basically, could you, yes, should you, no, and finally will you get violated if found out, most likely yes.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

You do not require a clearance to fly in instrument meterological conditions in class G airspace.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

SteveC said:
Thanks. I think most of us are on the same page then - it's legal to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance and without talking to ATC, but probably not smart to do in the kind of places that most of us hang out.
Click to expand...
Yep. Like I said, legal until you get violated.

Brian Z said:
No worries mini. I was just jumping on the hyper-analyze bandwagon. Basically, could you, yes, should you, no, and finally will you get violated if found out, most likely yes.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with that.

twdeckard said:
You do not require a clearance to fly in instrument meterological conditions in class G airspace.
Click to expand...
It's legal until you get violated. It's happened before.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

shdw said:
I still disagree, I have been looking but havn't been able to find it. However I am pretty sure somewhere it says you need to be on an IFR flight plan, IFR rated, and something else to be IFR. Otherwise you should be under VFR rules which 91.155 covers class G with remain clear of clouds (day) and standards for night.
Click to expand...
You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

It very clear that an instrument rated pilot may legally fly in IMC in Class G without an ATC clearance (ATC has no control authority over uncontrolled airspace - that's the whole idea) and without an IFR flight plan (which, by regulation, is only required in controlled airspace).

But...

There are situations, typically involving potential interference with aircraft in nearby controlled airspace) where the FAA will and has considered the lack of a flight plan reckless conduct.

Here's an example that talks about both the technical legality of instrument flight in Class G and a situation where they were satisfied that it was potentially dangerous to others:
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3935.PDF
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Seriously...just take the extra 2 minutes and file an IFR flight plan on DUATS and C.Y.A.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

ClearedToThe said:
Seriously...just take the extra 2 minutes and file an IFR flight plan on DUATS and C.Y.A.
Click to expand...
A practical answer is rarely a satisfactory solution to an academic question.

Seriously...just stop flying altogether and stay firmly on the ground and you don't have to worry about any FAA regulations. ;)
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

1. Flying IMC in class G airspace without a clearance is done on a regular basis. Departing a class G airport on an IFR flight plan you will be told, "Enter controlled airspace... blah blah blah." That class G airspace prior to the class E? You're on your own. ATC can not issue a clearance for this airspace.
2. Other class G airspace it is still perfectly legal (such as much of the country in the southwest US), but not done as much as in the past in the lower 48. Frankly, I might see situations where filing a flight plan would not do any good. You could not talk to ATC, and even if you could they would not be able to see you on RADAR and even if they could see you on RADAR they can't give you a clearance... it's uncontrolled airspace. Would I fly in IMC in those conditions? Probably not. But I've learned never to say never... wait a second...
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

An example of what I am talking about.
http://skyvector.com/#47-26-3-868-2517
Going from E94 eastbound to KTCS. Ceiling at 10000', tops at 15000'. Maybe it's clear at E94, clear at KTCS, but some clouds enroute. Fly eastbound at 13,000 (gives you the 2000' obstacle clearance in mountainous terrain)... and you are in class G airspace (until right before KTCS). You can file an IFR flight plan if you want... even activate it in the air. ATC won't and can't give you a clearance. Heck, they probably can't even talk to you. You are perfectly legal. And, I would add, probably safer than trying to scud run in that area.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Blackhawk said:
An example of what I am talking about.
http://skyvector.com/#47-26-3-868-2517
Going from E94 eastbound to KTCS. Ceiling at 10000', tops at 15000'. Maybe it's clear at E94, clear at KTCS, but some clouds enroute. Fly eastbound at 13,000 (gives you the 2000' obstacle clearance in mountainous terrain)... and you are in class G airspace (until right before KTCS). You can file an IFR flight plan if you want... even activate it in the air. ATC won't and can't give you a clearance. Heck, they probably can't even talk to you. You are perfectly legal. And, I would add, probably safer than trying to scud run in that area.
Click to expand...

Nice area out there! VR-176 was a very scenic route!
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

MikeD said:
Nice area out there! VR-176 was a very scenic route!
Click to expand...

Yeah... but not a place where I'd want to have a flame out at night or in IMC. Definitely don't want to aim for the dark areas during a forced landing at night.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Blackhawk said:
Yeah... but not a place where I'd want to have a flame out at night or in IMC. Definitely don't want to aim for the dark areas during a forced landing at night.
Click to expand...

Same here. At least I had, at the time, a nylon-letdown capability.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

MikeD said:
Same here. At least I had, at the time, a nylon-letdown capability.
Click to expand...

I guess becoming a member of the Caterpillar Club beats the alternative... but still not the ideal terrain for a PLF.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

minitour said:
It's legal until you get violated. It's happened before.
-mini
Click to expand...

Do you have an example of a violation? I disregard the subsequent post, an uncontrolled IMC departure below the E shelf hoping to get a clearance, or recover VMC in the next 1200ft, was criminal.

Which would be more dangerous: (a) departing a rural airport in Montana in low-ifr and flying many miles in class G before entering the system or (b) making a routine instrument approach and descending into 1200' ceilings at an airport that is home to several NORDO cubs?

Scenario (b) is fairly common and there is a lot less luck in your favor to insure traffic separation.

At the risk of hijacking the thread (b) would be sauce for the "stabilized non-precision approach" versus "dive and drive" debate. If honk down to MDA as early as permitted in the procedure it gives you more time to integrate with traffic in the pattern.

In some circumstances flight in IMC outside of the air traffic control system is an operational necessity. Is there an example of where this has provoked a violation?
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

twdeckard said:
Do you have an example of a violation? I disregard the subsequent post, an uncontrolled IMC departure below the E shelf hoping to get a clearance, or recover VMC in the next 1200ft, was criminal.
Click to expand...
Those are pretty much the types of circumstances that will result in a violation.

A lot of folks read that case as stating a rule making IFR flight in Class G without an IFR clearance for entry into "higher" airspace illegal (it's easier and people tend to like hard line rules better than "it depends"). I read it like you do - IFR flight in Class G is perfectly legal, but 91.13 may step in depending on the circumstances in which you do it.

Just the way driving 30 mph on a city street is "legal" but doing it while making a bunch of school children crossing the street scatter may violate other rules (including reckless driving).
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

twdeckard said:
Do you have an example of a violation? I disregard the subsequent post, an uncontrolled IMC departure below the E shelf hoping to get a clearance, or recover VMC in the next 1200ft, was criminal.

Which would be more dangerous: (a) departing a rural airport in Montana in low-ifr and flying many miles in class G before entering the system or (b) making a routine instrument approach and descending into 1200' ceilings at an airport that is home to several NORDO cubs?

Scenario (b) is fairly common and there is a lot less luck in your favor to insure traffic separation.

At the risk of hijacking the thread (b) would be sauce for the "stabilized non-precision approach" versus "dive and drive" debate. If honk down to MDA as early as permitted in the procedure it gives you more time to integrate with traffic in the pattern.

In some circumstances flight in IMC outside of the air traffic control system is an operational necessity. Is there an example of where this has provoked a violation?
Click to expand...

Like I wrote, I'm not sure how it could result in a violation unless there were other circumstances involved (such as the case of launching with the hope of picking up an IFR clearance). Even if you could talk to ATC they can not give you a clearance in class G airspace, and the odds of them being able to talk to you or see you on RADAR are slim in many places. Personally, I don't think the example of AVX is a good one to use given victor airways there, the class E begining at 700', and the ability to talk with approach in that area and while it might be legal I don't think it would be smart. Other cases such as IFR in rural class G areas I don't see as being a problem.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

MidlifeFlyer said:
Those are pretty much the types of circumstances that will result in a violation.

A lot of folks read that case as stating a rule making IFR flight in Class G without an IFR clearance for entry into "higher" airspace illegal (it's easier and people tend to like hard line rules better than "it depends"). I read it like you do - IFR flight in Class G is perfectly legal, but 91.13 may step in depending on the circumstances in which you do it.
Click to expand...
Right.

It's legal...until you get violated.

91.173 seems to allow IFR flight in class G airspace w/o a clearance or so much as a flight plan. However, we should all be aware at this point that they're going to slap 91.13 on you and all of a sudden, you're illegal...legal though you may be.

Kind of a "go ahead and do it...as long as we don't catch you". That seemed to be the legal precedent set in that case.

Blackhawk said:
Even if you could talk to ATC they can not give you a clearance in class G airspace, and the odds of them being able to talk to you or see you on RADAR are slim in many places.
Click to expand...

A few things.

1) You bring up RADAR contact a few times in the thread and I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. You do not need to be in RADAR contact to receive an IFR clearance. At all. You can fly an entire IFR flight legally outside of RADAR coverage in controlled airspace including an approach to minimums at your destination. No problem at all.

2) ATC can, has and will issue you a clearance "through the uncontrolled airspace". I'm not naive enough to think I'm the only one to ever accomplish something in the history of human kind. So considering how many times I've gotten cleared through the class G airspace, I have to assume it is done somewhat regularly.

3) *not from Blackhawk's post* The argument that if you're taking off at an airport with Class E starting at 700 or 1200, you're operating in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance seems kinda bogus.

If you picked up your clearance on the ground, you've been cleared. Your first instruction may be "upon entering controlled arispace, fly..." but that doesn't mean you haven't been "cleared to___ via___, etc.". If you pick it up in the air, you should be maintaining VFR. If you blast off into the clouds, hoping to pick up your clearance by 1200', then that does indeed seem careless and reckless.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

minitour said:
Right.

It's legal...until you get violated.

91.173 seems to allow IFR flight in class G airspace w/o a clearance or so much as a flight plan. However, we should all be aware at this point that they're going to slap 91.13 on you and all of a sudden, you're illegal...legal though you may be.

Kind of a "go ahead and do it...as long as we don't catch you". That seemed to be the legal precedent set in that case.



A few things.

1) You bring up RADAR contact a few times in the thread and I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. You do not need to be in RADAR contact to receive an IFR clearance. At all. You can fly an entire IFR flight legally outside of RADAR coverage in controlled airspace including an approach to minimums at your destination. No problem at all.

2) ATC can, has and will issue you a clearance "through the uncontrolled airspace". I'm not naive enough to think I'm the only one to ever accomplish something in the history of human kind. So considering how many times I've gotten cleared through the class G airspace, I have to assume it is done somewhat regularly.

3) *not from Blackhawk's post* The argument that if you're taking off at an airport with Class E starting at 700 or 1200, you're operating in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance seems kinda bogus.

If you picked up your clearance on the ground, you've been cleared. Your first instruction may be "upon entering controlled arispace, fly..." but that doesn't mean you haven't been "cleared to___ via___, etc.". If you pick it up in the air, you should be maintaining VFR. If you blast off into the clouds, hoping to pick up your clearance by 1200', then that does indeed seem careless and reckless.

-mini
Click to expand...

I did not intend to imply that you must be in RADAR contact or even in radio contact to have an IFR clearance, but I can see how what I wrote can be read that way.
As far as the clearance you receive, that is effective once you enter controlled airspace which is why you get the instructions, "Upon departure, enter controlled airspace... blah blah blah." In the class G portion of the airspace it is uncontrolled, meaning ATC does not and can not controll it or issue a clearance through it. From the Instrument Flying Handbook:
"An ATC clearance allows an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace for the purpose of providing seperation between known aircraft."
Also, 91.173 does not SEEM to permit IFR operations in class G airspace without a clearance or a flight plan, it DOES. Again, it is uncontrolled airspace and ATC can not issue you a clearance. The only issue that might come up would be something like penetrating class E airspace in the process of trying to get a pop-up clearance. I've seen aircraft do this, but have not heard of any getting violated... although it may have happened.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top