Ferrying a Plane

How would one accompany a ferry pilot on one of his/her missions? As I have been thinking about ferrying for a long time, I think this would be a good way to see if its for me, get some experience, learn a new plane/systems(G1000). As I am stuck out here CFIing in California's central valley, and left my heart in NYC, a transcontinental headed east would be nice.

Dick Karl, of Flying Magazine, accompanied somewhat famed ferry pilot Margrit Waltz on a TBM 850 transatlantic ferry to the US and wrote 2 articles about it in 2 recent flying issues.
 
One of our CFI's ferried a plane that we sold form MT to FL. The electrical system went out when looking for the field. It was late at night an pitch black. He said that he was so thankful he brought a handheld radio and a Garmin 496. If the back up GPS is out of the budget, a handheld NAV/COM won't break the bank. He was able to use the handheld to turn on the field lights. A cell phone would probably be good as a bare minimum. I would just fly DAY/VFR.

-Matt
 
Wow this one has almost completely divulged into something else..


Anyway, I just flew a 172 from grand junction Colorado to South Carolina. And we crossed the highest point at monarch pass. I can elaborate if you would like, I figured you got alot of input already. Oh and we went VFR the whole way, during the day, no oxygen, 30 minutes above 12,500 to cross monarch, staring at the mountains the whole way!! :drool:

Do what everyone else says...have fun!!
 
Maddog1974 said:
Wow this one has almost completely divulged into something else..


Anyway, I just flew a 172 from grand junction Colorado to South Carolina. And we crossed the highest point at monarch pass. I can elaborate if you would like, I figured you got alot of input already. Oh and we went VFR the whole way, during the day, no oxygen, 30 minutes above 12,500 to cross monarch, staring at the mountains the whole way!! :drool:

Do what everyone else says...have fun!!
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Any performance issues up at altitude? We couldn't get up that high(12.5) because of density altitude. I'm sure it wasn't as hot up there as it was for me over Western TX and NM.
 
minitour said:
I'm so glad this came up. I knew it was going to. I knew someone would play the "the airlines are required to be IFR" card. Here's the thing. They aren't.

121.611
No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for VFR operation unless the ceiling and visibility en route, as indicated by available weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, are and will remain at or above applicable VFR minimums until the aircraft arrives at the airport or airports specified in the dispatch or flight release.

Also see 121.649 and .667 ... there are others, but I'm not going to get into the communications and navigation equipment requirements for VFR flights.

So if the airlines aren't "required" to go IFR all the time, it surely can't be any safer, right? That was your measuring stick...not mine.
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Zing!!!!
 
minitour said:
I'm so glad this came up. I knew it was going to. I knew someone would play the "the airlines are required to be IFR" card. Here's the thing. They aren't.
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Ok, good catch. You're right. "Required" is too strong of a word. The regs do not require it.

Just curious, do Op Specs ever require it? I've never flown in the 121 world.



In any case, the fact remains, the vast majority of airline flights operate under IFR. Why is this?

Mini, do you think that's just for kicks? Do you think it's strictly so they can fly through a cloud if they find one enroute?

Or do you think there might be an element of added safety involved?
 
MikeOH58 said:
VMC only, no night in mountainous terrain. Set your day rate and stick with it. Don't lowball yourself, or anyone else. This is a big flight. The guy can and should be paying you $350-$400/day. Make it clear that you expect your day right for every day outside of home base, including travel and wx days. Hotel of your choice, rental car if you need it, and give yourself $100/day expenses.
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$350-400 AND expenses? that sounds a little high to me. I would say more like $150 a day plus expenses. It is only a BE-19! If you can get $400 a day flying a piston single, go for it though!
 
Longrange said:
When I did C-172, Cirrus, BE-76 ferry VNY-JAC or HPN few years back.
$350 USD per day. $60 Per Diem. Marriott, Hilton or Embassy Suites for hotels. WX Delays and fuel, oil, parking, Jepps all included in contract between the owner and I.

Now I a fly SIC on citations.
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For the same rate too I would assume... i dont get how you guys are getting this much to ferry single engine airplanes! I guess I just didnt know it was worth so much. (I make 350 a day in a Citation 550. Im typed also.)
 
jrh said:
Ok, good catch. You're right. "Required" is too strong of a word. The regs do not require it.

Just curious, do Op Specs ever require it? I've never flown in the 121 world.



In any case, the fact remains, the vast majority of airline flights operate under IFR. Why is this?

Mini, do you think that's just for kicks? Do you think it's strictly so they can fly through a cloud if they find one enroute?

Or do you think there might be an element of added safety involved?
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I think it's because you have to have authorization to do so. It's simply easier to obtain and comply with the IFR requirements in the op specs.

You never mentioned my question. Since the airlines aren't required to go IFR all the time, it surely can't be any safer, right? Again. You used that as a measuring stick, not me. Double standards?

-mini
 
I am in the Pensacola area and have a hangar you can use overnight if you need it. I would even feed you and put you up if you want to stay the night. I have a flexible schedule so hit me up if you come through even if it's just a fuel stop and I will say hi. Sounds like a blast!! JOE
 
minitour said:
You never mentioned my question. Since the airlines aren't required to go IFR all the time, it surely can't be any safer, right?
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Ummm...I don't follow your logic. Just because something isn't required does not mean two options are equally safe. There can still be a safer option of the two.

"Safer" is a relative term. I've said since the start of this thread that operating VFR can be safe. VFR operations are not inherently dangerous. I fly VFR all the time. I have nothing against VFR.

So we're left with two *acceptably* safe options: IFR or VFR. This is not a good vs. bad choice. This is a good vs. better choice.

This concept can be applied to a different situation. If you're taking off in a Cessna 172, would you rather have a 3,000 foot long runway or a 10,000 foot long runway? Everything else being equal, I would prefer the 10,000 foot long runway. Does that mean a 3,000 foot long runway is unsafe? Of course not! But the 10,000 foot long runway is safER. Both runways are acceptable, yet there is a distinctly better option of the two.

The airlines aren't required to operate IFR because VFR has been deemed acceptably safe by the feds. That doesn't change the fact that IFR is a safer system.

The whole reason this stupid debate started was because I suggested filing IFR would be a good idea if the pilot, aircraft, and other conditions allow for it. It would be the same as me saying, "Hey, if you can use a 10,000 foot long runway instead of a 3,000 foot strip, I'd go for the longer one."

Why is this concept so hard to understand?
 
I hate to be "that guy" that pokes his head in but, how do you get into ferry flights? Is it just who you know? Or what? Either way, they seem like tons of fun and something that won't be forgotten.
 
Bsmiller05 said:
I hate to be "that guy" that pokes his head in but, how do you get into ferry flights? Is it just who you know? Or what? Either way, they seem like tons of fun and something that won't be forgotten.
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Yes, they are tons of fun, and yes, most of the time it's who you know.

A lot of times if a flight school buys or sells a plane one or two of their instructors will go pick it up or deliver it.

Sometimes if an individual buys or sells a plane they'll call up their old instructor or another friend to ferry it.

Other times aircraft brokers use ferry pilots for deliveries. Again, it's about who you know...get to be friends with a broker.

Really, very few people make a full time living ferrying aircraft. The majority of us do a few trips a year and work full time in some other capacity.
 
The other fact missing in the discussion about 121 VFR is that most 121 operations (heck, probably all, but now someone will correct me) operate equipment that is best run in the flight levels, making the IFR/VFR debate pretty moot.

Also another point is airlines must adhere to whatever is in their OPSPECs.

Question: When Alaska is going between Petersburg and Wrangell, are the allowed to go VFR is the wx permits?
 
jrh said:
Just because something isn't required does not mean two options are equally safe.
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Your logic was If it's required, it must be safer. So it should follow that If it isn't required, it isn't necessarily safer. But you're saying that isn't the case.

I see. :rolleyes:

-mini
 
minitour said:
Your logic was If it's required, it must be safer. So it should follow that If it isn't required, it isn't necessarily safer. But you're saying that isn't the case.

I see. :rolleyes:
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Mini, you've done a fantastic job of dancing around the point without proving anything.

You called me out on the whole "required" wording, and I revised it to say it might not be required, but it's definitely standard operating practice.

So try this statement instead: "If it's SOP, it must be safer. Therefore, if it's not SOP, it is not as safe."

I've said about all I can say. If you're not convinced, that's fine.
 
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